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This is a fantastic thread, very useful for the rest of us potential buyers! Best of luck on your Condo or RV solution! I don't want to hijack the thread and maybe I should start another one, but I too have been considering buying a 2nd home and whether to supplement it with rent or just use it myself. I'm still a bit up in the air but narrowing in on the CDA/Sandpoint corridor or down in Teton Valley, ID area. My planned usage is quite different, I'd come up to the 2nd home for maybe 12 weeks a year to start, for the next 4-5 years, then start spending more and more time up there after that, up to maybe 75% or more in ID.
What I really want is something with some space, a couple acres, but not being there to manage it seems to add complexity. If CDA had more year-round rentals (like Teton Valley would), I'd be more confident in being able to hire a good property management team for indoor and outdoor maintenance to keep the place up and running, even if I wasn't renting it out I could just pay for a caretaker like service. Anyone familiar with that around CDA? It's a very easy thing to arrange in a place like Teton Valley with a plethora of providers due to year round rental demand, but maybe more difficult in CDA?
I also struggle with the vehicle aspect. Teton Valley is 7-8 hours closer to drive so more reasonable to drive to vs. flying every time. Seems the best bet is to long term store a vehicle at the house to use each time I fly up. I just really love North Idaho so would like to find a way to make it work. I'm constantly back and forth on this.
All this complexity and overhead then starts to make me think just renting VRBOs here and there for my 2-4 week stretches would be easier and cheaper!
This is a fantastic thread, very useful for the rest of us potential buyers! Best of luck on your Condo or RV solution!
... (big clip)
All this complexity and overhead then starts to make me think just renting VRBOs here and there for my 2-4 week stretches would be easier and cheaper!
Me too.
At least, until you have a better notion of where you want to most spend your time and money. Keeping your choices flexible is a good thing, I think, for the moment. I'm sure that, in time, you'll know which end of the state suits you the most. That's where you will be happiest.
One thing's for sure, in the immediate future: don't be looking for cheap bargains here. I don't think they exist any more.
This is a fantastic thread, very useful for the rest of us potential buyers! Best of luck on your Condo or RV solution! I don't want to hijack the thread and maybe I should start another one, but I too have been considering buying a 2nd home and whether to supplement it with rent or just use it myself. I'm still a bit up in the air but narrowing in on the CDA/Sandpoint corridor or down in Teton Valley, ID area. My planned usage is quite different, I'd come up to the 2nd home for maybe 12 weeks a year to start, for the next 4-5 years, then start spending more and more time up there after that, up to maybe 75% or more in ID.
What I really want is something with some space, a couple acres, but not being there to manage it seems to add complexity. If CDA had more year-round rentals (like Teton Valley would), I'd be more confident in being able to hire a good property management team for indoor and outdoor maintenance to keep the place up and running, even if I wasn't renting it out I could just pay for a caretaker like service. Anyone familiar with that around CDA? It's a very easy thing to arrange in a place like Teton Valley with a plethora of providers due to year round rental demand, but maybe more difficult in CDA?
I also struggle with the vehicle aspect. Teton Valley is 7-8 hours closer to drive so more reasonable to drive to vs. flying every time. Seems the best bet is to long term store a vehicle at the house to use each time I fly up. I just really love North Idaho so would like to find a way to make it work. I'm constantly back and forth on this.
All this complexity and overhead then starts to make me think just renting VRBO's here and there for my 2-4 week stretches would be easier and cheaper!
IMHO, you are thinking out a lot of important matters: maintenance, property supervision and security, vehicles, returns on rentals if you do that, etc.
At first blush without running any numbers, 12 weeks of renting on VRBO or AirBnB seems to be reaching the threshold where it could become more expensive than owning without renting. Which way it goes with 12 weeks of personal use all depends on the details of things like if you rent your owned place, how often dose your prperty rent, when do you rent vs your use times, how much rent can the property command, do you have a mortgage and how much etc. So that is a hard one to call IMHO without figuring up all of the details.
More random thoughts:
One thing that has not yet popped up that is worth mentioning: If you do short term rentals in a place where you spend time yourself, you need some locked personal storage. Hauling it all to a storage unit off-premises each time you depart is just not reasonably workable, so you'll need locked storage space on-premises. We had 2: an inside locked owner's closet for things like our own linens, canned food and staples, cleaning supplies, etc., plus an outside locked owner's closet for yard tools, house spares, limited building and repair supplies, etc. One word of warning! DO NOT ever store alcohol in your locked owner's closets(s). We never did but some acquaintances did; some renters are curious enough to force locks, and some of those will take your booze.
Storing a car may work with renters. I just don't have any experience with that. The environment in in that region seems OK for long term storage, but keep your anti-freeze changed and up to strength for severe cold, and consider disconnecting the battery each time you leave. Shorts and car fires are bad juju....and you don't know what will happen with a car battery and car if something like a tree comes crashing through the garage roof in a storm. We had a neighbor's unoccupied house almost catch fire and burn in a hurricane; the water rose and shorted the electrical system in a car in the carport. The local VFD got there through very deep storm water and managed to haul the blazing car out just in time but it was noticed only because the PM lived 1 block away, saw the smoke, and notified her husband.. who was the VFD chief! Crazy stuff happens when you are away....
Back to renting out a place, make sure you are OK with renters moving things and re-arranging stuff. My wife would go bonkers each fall after 21-22 weeks of summer renting; 'NOTHING in MY kitchen is in the right place!" A few things would disappear each year, and blenders had a short life when used for grinding up ice or being left out in the rain after a party LOL. Grilles hauled in by renters on balconies of a wood structure condo may be a fire hazard, but it will happen.
Arranging housekeeping/cleaning after renters is usually one thing a PM will do for you and that may or may not work well. PM's don't have quite the same interest as you in your property; in vacation areas, the term 'rental manager' is often more accurate than 'property manager'. Supervision of cleaning and checking up on the place can be variable with PM's, so be forewarned. Good PMs will also have maintenance on staff and access to ready maintenance vendors, so that can be a plus when you are far away. Understand how their business works and accept it for what it is, and you will better understand what to expect.
A quality independent cleaner who you can directly hire is worth their weight in gold, and they can keep an eye on things for you too. That is a key matter if you do VRBO or AirBnB. Also, you have to do deep cleans every years at some point in time, to keep the build-up of dust and such down. It just gets moreso if you rent... unless you are OK with getting less than the best reviews and losing repeat renters.
Small note related to housekeeping: Paint red x's on the walls behind each picture and wall hanging, so its removal will readily spotted by the cleaner.
Security of far rural properties can be a concern if there are no neighbors or anyone hired to regularly check on the place, or a good neighbor with whom you trade favors (or is just plain nice). Squatters at far flung, infrequently used rentals and vacation properties is not novel. That is just one more plus for a busier, vacation oriented locale, or being closer to a residential urban area or having a gated community. Security cameras depend on the internet or other backhaul for remote access and viewing, so knowing the internet options and speeds is something to think about.
And some vacation areas limit short term rentals to selected neighborhoods or even just condo areas, and explicitly prohibit short term rentals elsewhere via zoning laws, or sometimes even covenants. West Yellowstone MT and Teton Co WY are examples where zoning is used to limit short term rentals, but I expect there are more.
IMHO, you are thinking out a lot of important matters: maintenance, property supervision and security, vehicles, returns on rentals if you do that, etc.
At first blush without running any numbers, 12 weeks of renting on VRBO or AirBnB seems to be reaching the threshold where it could become more expensive than owning without renting. Which way it goes with 12 weeks of personal use all depends on the details of things like if you rent your owned place, how often dose your prperty rent, when do you rent vs your use times, how much rent can the property command, do you have a mortgage and how much etc. So that is a hard one to call IMHO without figuring up all of the details.
More random thoughts:
One thing that has not yet popped up that is worth mentioning: If you do short term rentals in a place where you spend time yourself, you need some locked personal storage. Hauling it all to a storage unit off-premises each time you depart is just not reasonably workable, so you'll need locked storage space on-premises. We had 2: an inside locked owner's closet for things like our own linens, canned food and staples, cleaning supplies, etc., plus an outside locked owner's closet for yard tools, house spares, limited building and repair supplies, etc. One word of warning! DO NOT ever store alcohol in your locked owner's closets(s). We never did but some acquaintances did; some renters are curious enough to force locks, and some of those will take your booze.
Storing a car may work with renters. I just don't have any experience with that. The environment in in that region seems OK for long term storage, but keep your anti-freeze changed and up to strength for severe cold, and consider disconnecting the battery each time you leave. Shorts and car fires are bad juju....and you don't know what will happen with a car battery and car if something like a tree comes crashing through the garage roof in a storm. We had a neighbor's unoccupied house almost catch fire and burn in a hurricane; the water rose and shorted the electrical system in a car in the carport. The local VFD got there through very deep storm water and managed to haul the blazing car out just in time but it was noticed only because the PM lived 1 block away, saw the smoke, and notified her husband.. who was the VFD chief! Crazy stuff happens when you are away....
Back to renting out a place, make sure you are OK with renters moving things and re-arranging stuff. My wife would go bonkers each fall after 21-22 weeks of summer renting; 'NOTHING in MY kitchen is in the right place!" A few things would disappear each year, and blenders had a short life when used for grinding up ice or being left out in the rain after a party LOL. Grilles hauled in by renters on balconies of a wood structure condo may be a fire hazard, but it will happen.
Arranging housekeeping/cleaning after renters is usually one thing a PM will do for you and that may or may not work well. PM's don't have quite the same interest as you in your property; in vacation areas, the term 'rental manager' is often more accurate than 'property manager'. Supervision of cleaning and checking up on the place can be variable with PM's, so be forewarned. Good PMs will also have maintenance on staff and access to ready maintenance vendors, so that can be a plus when you are far away. Understand how their business works and accept it for what it is, and you will better understand what to expect.
A quality independent cleaner who you can directly hire is worth their weight in gold, and they can keep an eye on things for you too. That is a key matter if you do VRBO or AirBnB. Also, you have to do deep cleans every years at some point in time, to keep the build-up of dust and such down. It just gets moreso if you rent... unless you are OK with getting less than the best reviews and losing repeat renters.
Small note related to housekeeping: Paint red x's on the walls behind each picture and wall hanging, so its removal will readily spotted by the cleaner.
Security of far rural properties can be a concern if there are no neighbors or anyone hired to regularly check on the place, or a good neighbor with whom you trade favors (or is just plain nice). Squatters at far flung, infrequently used rentals and vacation properties is not novel. That is just one more plus for a busier, vacation oriented locale, or being closer to a residential urban area or having a gated community. Security cameras depend on the internet or other backhaul for remote access and viewing, so knowing the internet options and speeds is something to think about.
And some vacation areas limit short term rentals to selected neighborhoods or even just condo areas, and explicitly prohibit short term rentals elsewhere via zoning laws, or sometimes even covenants. West Yellowstone MT and Teton Co WY are examples where zoning is used to limit short term rentals, but I expect there are more.
A fantastic post! We've essentially gone through similar considerations in order to manage our Idaho property before retirement, especially if part-time retirement would allow us to become actual snowbirds for a number of years. The renting out of the 2nd home/vacation home during winter just doesn't seem feasible (lock up stuff, make sure everything works for a winter visit, too far from resort). The renting out of the primary residence takes an enormous amount of planning, but that could work--especially in our case, because we're close to a university, and there are usually visiting professors who need a temporary residence. But...we have new zoning laws now, and besides, I'm not sure we're up for all that planning, locking down/hauling stuff to and from storage twice a year! I sublet my apartment back east when moving out west, back in the previous century (and did make good money on that), but the upkeep was a disaster. Most of the (young student) renters were thoroughly irresponsible people. Some didn't know the meaning of cleaning. Stuff disappeared. Items were found broken. And that was just a studio apartment! After a visit from family I can't find things in our kitchen as it is!
So for us, setting up an arrangement with good neighbors in both places seems like the most sensible solution right now. It won't generate any income, but it will give us at least some peace of mind.
Plus: a good alarm system!
Last edited by Clark Fork Fantast; 12-31-2020 at 02:21 PM..
We've essentially gone through similar considerations in order to manage our Idaho property before retirement, especially if part-time retirement would allow us to become actual snowbirds for a number of years. The renting out of the 2nd home/vacation home during winter just doesn't seem feasible (lock up stuff, make sure everything works for a winter visit, too far from resort). The renting out of the primary residence takes an enormous amount of planning, but that could work--especially in our case, because we're close to a university, and there are usually visiting professors who need a temporary residence. But...we have new zoning laws now, and besides, I'm not sure we're up for all that planning, locking down/hauling stuff to and from storage twice a year! I sublet my apartment back east when moving out west, back in the previous century (and did make good money on that), but the upkeep was a disaster. Most of the (young student) renters were thoroughly irresponsible people. Some didn't know the meaning of cleaning. Stuff disappeared. Items were found broken. And that was just a studio apartment! After a visit from family I can't find things in our kitchen as it is!
So for us, setting up an arrangement with good neighbors in both places seems like the most sensible solution right now. It won't generate any income, but it will give us at least some peace of mind.
Plus: a good alarm system!
You bring up a very important matter for everyone to think about if considering rentals, CFF: the potential for damage. Your visiting professors would be a good bet. (Unless they are anarchists and decide to make bombs in your house LOL....)
But, the matter of students is sadly for real; the worst case damages on the OBX (Outer Banks) were 'party weeks' on a property. Youngsters' judgement and sense of responsibility are often not good, and when things go out of control it can get very bad. On rare occasions, houses would get comprehensively trashed and damages would be in the many 10's of thousands of $$. (It was most regrettable when a parent would enable the group by taking out the rental, but they would rue their actions when taken to court.... and would always lose. It is all there in the lease....)
That is the exception, but, if you rent, you ought to become at least passingly familiar with the eviction laws for short term rentals. In NC, there is a process for a <24 hour eviction action when things like this happen. That is one good thing IMHO about using a PM: they know this legal stuff and usually will be right on top of a bad situation as soon as they learn about it. A good neighbor is often the first to notice an out-of-control situations. Or just avoid it altogether; we purposely never rented during the east coast spring break weeks.
Don't get whacked out on this matter; bad scenes like this are fortunately rare in most short term rentals. Just realize that it is possible. A strong, comprehensive lease is important. Like any good business agreement, it should cover the unexpected and unpleasant things just as well as it covers the normal things.
Higher end places typically see less damage. Part of our reasoning to go to a high priced property than planned was due to this, and it seemed to work out. And keeping your place pristine is also a big factor; if you show 'pride of ownership' and provide a squeaky clean and well kept place, with comfy beds, bedding kept up well, furniture cleaned every year, nice or decent dishes and pots and pans, and so forth, renters seem to respond positively to that, and give your place more respect. (And good reviews and repeat business!)
More commonly, damage is little niggling stuff, like bed covers taken to the beach, walls dinged by suitcases, stains on furniture or carpet, broken dishes, ski's scarring the baseboards or flooring, and the like. Minor wall dings and stains and dishes just fall into the category of 'wear and tear' (we all do things like that in normal living in our homes), and you just have to be ready to suck it up. I made sure that our costs for such things were covered in the rents, and we took measures like twice annual carpet cleans. (You would not believe how much sand carpet can hold LOL!) Annual paint touches up, and Old English on the nicks in clear-finish interior trim, were just part of our spring work and kept things looking nice for the coming season's guests.
For the snowy areas, having a mud room or foyer for donning and removal and stowage of skis and boots and snow-laden clothes is a very good idea. An outdoor shower is nice for an area with swimming. And a 2nd fridge set to full cold for beer is a must in a full sized house LOL.
If you rent in an area with numerous other rentals, you might find a discussion forum for that area/resort, and it may have an 'owners only' subforum. We had a good one on the OBX, and learned and shared a lot with fellow owners. VRBO and AirBnB may have such owners forums. So those can be excellent resources.
You bring up a very important matter for everyone to think about if considering rentals, CFF: the potential for damage. Your visiting professors would be a good bet. (Unless they are anarchists and decide to make bombs in your house LOL....)
But, the matter of students is sadly for real; the worst case damages on the OBX (Outer Banks) were 'party weeks' on a property. Youngsters' judgement and sense of responsibility are often not good, and when things go out of control it can get very bad. On rare occasions, houses would get comprehensively trashed and damages would be in the many 10's of thousands of $$. (It was most regrettable when a parent would enable the group by taking out the rental, but they would rue their actions when taken to court.... and would always lose. It is all there in the lease....)
That is the exception, but, if you rent, you ought to become at least passingly familiar with the eviction laws for short term rentals. In NC, there is a process for a <24 hour eviction action when things like this happen. That is one good thing IMHO about using a PM: they know this legal stuff and usually will be right on top of a bad situation as soon as they learn about it. A good neighbor is often the first to notice an out-of-control situations. Or just avoid it altogether; we purposely never rented during the east coast spring break weeks.
Don't get whacked out on this matter; bad scenes like this are fortunately rare in most short term rentals. Just realize that it is possible. A strong, comprehensive lease is important. Like any good business agreement, it should cover the unexpected and unpleasant things just as well as it covers the normal things.
Higher end places typically see less damage. Part of our reasoning to go to a high priced property than planned was due to this, and it seemed to work out. And keeping your place pristine is also a big factor; if you show 'pride of ownership' and provide a squeaky clean and well kept place, with comfy beds, bedding kept up well, furniture cleaned every year, nice or decent dishes and pots and pans, and so forth, renters seem to respond positively to that, and give your place more respect. (And good reviews and repeat business!)
More commonly, damage is little niggling stuff, like bed covers taken to the beach, walls dinged by suitcases, stains on furniture or carpet, broken dishes, ski's scarring the baseboards or flooring, and the like. Minor wall dings and stains and dishes just fall into the category of 'wear and tear' (we all do things like that in normal living in our homes), and you just have to be ready to suck it up. I made sure that our costs for such things were covered in the rents, and we took measures like twice annual carpet cleans. (You would not believe how much sand carpet can hold LOL!) Annual paint touches up, and Old English on the nicks in clear-finish interior trim, were just part of our spring work and kept things looking nice for the coming season's guests.
For the snowy areas, having a mud room or foyer for donning and removal and stowage of skis and boots and snow-laden clothes is a very good idea. An outdoor shower is nice for an area with swimming. And a 2nd fridge set to full cold for beer is a must in a full sized house LOL.
If you rent in an area with numerous other rentals, you might find a discussion forum for that area/resort, and it may have an 'owners only' subforum. We had a good one on the OBX, and learned and shared a lot with fellow owners. VRBO and AirBnB may have such owners forums. So those can be excellent resources.
Excellent suggestions all around, thank you for the feedback. Lots of things to consider, and patience required. Wish I could just make it a full time move to ID right now, then figure out the part time away thing if needed later on in life if I start to dislike winter. ID is really where I want to be FROM, not escape TO :-)
Blockzilla - Our plan is the reverse. Our "three season residence" (Oct-May) will be in a more retiree tax-friendly state like NV or AZ. We'll enjoy decent weather during those months, then escape the terrible heat to get up to No ID (CDA) for the summer season. No renting of either place for us. I've become convinced we won't likely have any interested parties who want to rent for just 8 months during the snowy season on NoID. Since we'll be retired, I don't want or need the hassles of transporting or storing all our stuff every season. I also want the security of knowing we'll always have a place that we can count on to be available, in good condition, and has all we need in it already there. We plan to buy a small pontoon and spend most of the summer on the lakes, so in essence, it will be our summer home -not just a "vacation."
This thread go started because I was toying with the idea of renting out the summer home, but some very convincing points have been made here that have all but eliminated that idea. Too much risk (as in potential damages), too much hassle (as in finding good responsible renters every season, billing them for utilities that remain in our name), and too much inconvenience (not leaving anything of much value in the place - having to move it somewhere else or lock it up in a closet that tenants can break into), to make it worthwhile. I have rented my personal residence out in the past. Took a job out of state but wasn't ready to sell my condo, so I rented it. I made the mistake of renting to a single gal who I found out later was a "trust fund baby." Two months after she signed the lease her family cut off her support because she pissed someone off, so she couldn't afford the place anymore. So she then proceeded to stiff me on two months rent, and added that I had to go through the (lengthy) eviction process to get her out. Big mistake on her part. I told her if she wasn't out by the weekend, I'd fly back, key in, and throw everything she owned out in the street, then we'd worry about the courts (I'm from Chicago - THAT'S the Chicago way as the movie quote goes...). Needless to say, she was gone in 48 hrs, but I swore I'd never rent again. I began to reconsider renting our soon to be summer place, but when I think back on this experience and all the other comments offered here, it's just not worth it. I'd LIKE the cash it could generate, but I don't NEED the cash, so there's that.
Now the BIGGEST challenge is going to be finding a nice, 1-2 bed condo near the central downtown area for a decent price!!!
Last edited by NC_Cpl; 01-01-2021 at 08:38 AM..
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