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golfgal
This is totally off topic as well as directed to you personally.
I was going to send you a PM but figured there are some others on here that will probably agree with me and I felt it deserved to be said publically.
I commend you for not using, or abusing, your powers ( at least as far as I know ) as a moderator to squelch the opinions of others that do not agree with yours.
I guess I'm missing something again, but I fail to see where anyone is attacking golfgal. There was some misunderstanding a while back by something she said, but that was more the fault of the person interpreting her post. Not hers.
But I would say it would be wrong for a moderator to "squelch" the opinions of others that do not agree with theirs. We should all be given equal right to argue our opinions, and I think we have. And from what I remember about golfgal's posts, I think she has demonstrated a very unbiased assessment of the health care problem, by being able to recognize both sides of the argument by the individual issues at hand.
Sigh..........I wonder why the saying "No good deed goes unpunished" come to mind.
I don't see where that post even hints at anything like 'attacks' or even 'misunderstandings"
It was simply a compliment modhatter... just a compliment.
Sigh..........I wonder why the saying "No good deed goes unpunished" come to mind.
I don't see where that post even hints at anything like 'attacks' or even 'misunderstandings"
It was simply a compliment modhatter... just a compliment.
Yes, I understand you wanted to give golfgal a pat on the back, and I agree you should. Whether you were referring to a recent post or just her handling of all posts. I guess I just don't agree with the wording chosen to compliment her. But I do recognize the intent now, so I apologize.
I never realized how expensive it was until a cousin had a car accident and broke just the collar bone. it came close to 17000.00 that is sick. all types of silly charges. they even charged her a nightshift charge. she arrived at about 1pm and left at 8pm. all types of weird charges. the hospital should ask " do you want me to do a brain scan? it will cost 6000.00 if you want it". that way she has a choice. make her sign a waiver in case she does have brain damage. " do you want me to scan your wrist, I know it does not hurt but it will cost 1573.00" give the patient the choice. you want a ride to the hospital, you gonna pay. well, I can still drive myself. you need the fire department to use tools to take you out of your car. you will pay a tool fee. it is crazy. I don't expect everything to be free, but 600.00 for a 2 mile hospital ride. that is sick.
This article from NPR illustrates the fact that the same things cost far more in the American health care system than anywhere else.
I paid just over $13,000 cash for home. It sits on ~24 hectares. Has a barn. Has another barn. But I didn't buy it in America. Obviously, Rosenthal doesn't understand the meaning of "Cost-of-Living."
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
1. Cover everyone; 2. Do so at a lesser cost than we have been paying.
Those are incongruous, as well as contradictory. Covering everyone will cost more.....it's the Laws of Economics.....the government could intervene and violate the Laws of Economics by ordering less money to be spent.....which is what all other States do....but then violating the Laws of Economics by not spending as much as it costs results in shortages somewhere, like facilities, equipment, operating rooms, doctors, staff and such... and people die on waiting lists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Submariner
In the last century health care costs have gone up a huge amount.
Is anyone doing anything to reduce these costs?
No.
A problem is impossible to solve, without first understanding what the problem truly is.
A great analogy of how the ignorant and uninformed see health care in the US is carpeting.
There's a hole in the roof -- straight through the ceiling of the living room -- and every time it rains, the furniture and carpet are damaged or ruined.
These people scream at the carpet layers and furniture delivery guys blaming them for the carpet and furniture being ruined every time it rains, even though it isn't the fault of the carpet layers or the delivery crew that there is a hole in the roof.
When someone decides to call a roofer and fix the hole in the roof, then someone will be doing something. Until then, enjoy being raked over the coals.
Health CEO's compensation versus sports coaches? The difference being that the coach of Duke, or any other university, isn't pretending to have sick patients as his number one focus.
Agreed - but the focus for sports coaches is some pituitary cases and some obsessed fans. Our doctors and the people running complicated health care systems that deliver good care to us should be among the best compensated professionals in our country - and we shouldn't try to be short-changing them. That will hurt all of us - because we get what we're willing to pay for (sometimes less but hardly ever more). I value the quality of my health care more than a winning football or other sports team. And have never resented 99% of the dollars I've spent out of pocket for health insurance or health care (I do get PO'd about my current Comcast bill - but that doesn't have anything to do with the price of onions). Perhaps I am unusual? Note that I have a ton of doctors in my family. The younger generation is pretty much going into specialties like interventional radiology. Areas where women can make a lot of money - and maintain a good work/family balance. Very rational IMO. Robyn
When costs are escalating out of control, we at some point need to look at what might be adding to the cost factor and start making some adjustments.
What would be the point?
Your own government has identified the cost factors that are escalating the costs of health care. Here they are ranked in order by your very own General Accounting Office....
1] Technology up to 65%
2] Consumer Demand up to 36%
3] Expanding Health Benefits or Insuring more people up to 13%
4] Healthcare Price Inflation up to 19% (caused by Consumer Demand and insuring more people)
5] Administrative Costs up to 13% (caused by Technology, Consumer Demand and Regulations)
6] Aging/Elderly up to 7%
Source: United States Government General Accounting Office GAO-13-281 PPACA and the Long-Term Fiscal Outlook, January 2013 pp 31-36
The uninsured are not the problem. So-called health insurance companies (which do not legally exist) are not the problem. The elderly are not the problem either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by modhatter
Hospitals compete for business in most cases, but it is usually not in the cost of medical services they compete.
There is where your argument fails miserably. You have no competition. You have not had competition since 1933, when the American Hospital Association first interfered in the Free Market using a number of different mechanisms in an attempt to gain monopoly control over health care in the US.
Want proof?
Okay, I'll let someone else have a turn....
Quote:
Originally Posted by rothbear
In February the Charlotte (NC) Observer had an article concerning pay of the 2 largest systems down here. Michael Tarwater, who leads Carolinas HealthCare System made $4.76 million for 2012 which included a 12% increase over 2011.
Well, there you have it.....thank you, rothbear.
Carolinas HealthCare System
That is a cartel....just like OPEC, just like the Medillin drug cartel, just like the oil companies everyone screams are monopolies.
Is it not hypocritical to criticize and rail against oil monopolies, while ignoring health care provider monopolies?
Here in my area we have two competing cartels, which illegally collude to illegally fix prices for health services.....what is Obamacare doing to address that? Nothin, and worse than that, Obamacare gives the green light to gouge Americans even more.
Can we back up just a second so I may explain something?
Health care in the united States is intra-State Commerce. It always was intra-State Commerce. The US Supreme Court has recently affirmed it is intra-State Commerce....and because it is, Congress has no power or authority to regulate it, and neither does any other federal agency.
The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) investigates and brings anti-trust actions against cartels that illegally collude to illegally fix prices....uh, like the American Federation of Diary Farmers --- Big AgroCorps that illegally collude to illegally fix the price of milk sold to school districts.
Again, precisely because health care is NOT Interstate Commerce, neither Congress nor any federal agency has any power or authority under the US Constitution.
To resolve this issue at the State level amongst the several States, you must create a gigantic PAC and start lobbying all of the legislatures in the several States to enact a law that bars any entity from owning more than one medical facility within a given region. I would not recommend that we use the Micro-Metropolitan Statistical Areas for that, instead of the Metropolitan Statistical Areas (since the MMSAs are smaller in size).
Hospitals are the sole entities that set the prices of health care, not insurance companies.
How does single-payer force hospitals to stop illegally colluding to illegally fix prices?
Can anyone answer that? Insurance companies do not set prices....hospitals do....and hospitals who are members of the American Hospital Association are the worst in terms of outrageously expensive fees for services.
Your own government has identified the cost factors that are escalating the costs of health care. Here they are ranked in order by your very own General Accounting Office....
1] Technology up to 65%
2] Consumer Demand up to 36%
3] Expanding Health Benefits or Insuring more people up to 13%
4] Healthcare Price Inflation up to 19% (caused by Consumer Demand and insuring more people)
5] Administrative Costs up to 13% (caused by Technology, Consumer Demand and Regulations)
6] Aging/Elderly up to 7%
Source: United States Government General Accounting Office GAO-13-281 PPACA and the Long-Term Fiscal Outlook, January 2013 pp 31-36
The uninsured are not the problem. So-called health insurance companies (which do not legally exist) are not the problem. The elderly are not the problem either.
There is where your argument fails miserably. You have no competition. You have not had competition since 1933, when the American Hospital Association first interfered in the Free Market using a number of different mechanisms in an attempt to gain monopoly control over health care in the US.
Want proof?
Okay, I'll let someone else have a turn....
Well, there you have it.....thank you, rothbear.
Carolinas HealthCare System
That is a cartel....just like OPEC, just like the Medillin drug cartel, just like the oil companies everyone screams are monopolies.
Is it not hypocritical to criticize and rail against oil monopolies, while ignoring health care provider monopolies?
Here in my area we have two competing cartels, which illegally collude to illegally fix prices for health services.....what is Obamacare doing to address that? Nothin, and worse than that, Obamacare gives the green light to gouge Americans even more.
Can we back up just a second so I may explain something?
Health care in the united States is intra-State Commerce. It always was intra-State Commerce. The US Supreme Court has recently affirmed it is intra-State Commerce....and because it is, Congress has no power or authority to regulate it, and neither does any other federal agency.
The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) investigates and brings anti-trust actions against cartels that illegally collude to illegally fix prices....uh, like the American Federation of Diary Farmers --- Big AgroCorps that illegally collude to illegally fix the price of milk sold to school districts.
Again, precisely because health care is NOT Interstate Commerce, neither Congress nor any federal agency has any power or authority under the US Constitution.
To resolve this issue at the State level amongst the several States, you must create a gigantic PAC and start lobbying all of the legislatures in the several States to enact a law that bars any entity from owning more than one medical facility within a given region. I would not recommend that we use the Micro-Metropolitan Statistical Areas for that, instead of the Metropolitan Statistical Areas (since the MMSAs are smaller in size).
Hospitals are the sole entities that set the prices of health care, not insurance companies.
How does single-payer force hospitals to stop illegally colluding to illegally fix prices?
Can anyone answer that? Insurance companies do not set prices....hospitals do....and hospitals who are members of the American Hospital Association are the worst in terms of outrageously expensive fees for services.
De-escalating....
Mircea
I will have to look into/read about the intra/interstate commerce thing. Where I get most of my health care - Mayo JAX - it is very much interstate commerce. I'm not sure I agree with you regarding your health care pricing POV. Excellent lawyers command in excess of $1000/hour today. And an hour with my excellent PCP is about $250 or so (list price - less on Medicare). In terms of comparison - my excellent plumber costs about $150/hour - almost $100 just to show up. Ditto for my electrician. I just paid the fellow who does my semi-annual pressure washing about $170 to do my 1 1/2 hour job. So what should things cost? When it comes to hospital stays - I don't have enough experience to judge. Only recent one on my part involved surgery in an OR - and cost about $15k for 1 hour surgery - pre- and post-op care - 20 hour hospital stay - and all the people who took care of me before the OR - in the OR - and in the hospital room. Again - about what I would pay 1 high priced spread lawyer for a similar number of hours. One of my nieces is graduating medical school this year. Going into interventional radiology. Where I think/would expect her to earn about $200-400k a year - maybe more. After all - there are garbage collectors in New York who earn more than $100k/year - with generous benefits too. Robyn
I will have to look into/read about the intra/interstate commerce thing. Where I get most of my health care - Mayo JAX - it is very much interstate commerce. I'm not sure I agree with you regarding your health care pricing POV. Excellent lawyers command in excess of $1000/hour today. And an hour with my excellent PCP is about $250 or so (list price - less on Medicare). In terms of comparison - my excellent plumber costs about $150/hour - almost $100 just to show up. Ditto for my electrician. I just paid the fellow who does my semi-annual pressure washing about $170 to do my 1 1/2 hour job. So what should things cost? When it comes to hospital stays - I don't have enough experience to judge. Only recent one on my part involved surgery in an OR - and cost about $15k for 1 hour surgery - pre- and post-op care - 20 hour hospital stay - and all the people who took care of me before the OR - in the OR - and in the hospital room. Again - about what I would pay 1 high priced spread lawyer for a similar number of hours. One of my nieces is graduating medical school this year. Going into interventional radiology. Where I think/would expect her to earn about $200-400k a year - maybe more. After all - there are garbage collectors in New York who earn more than $100k/year - with generous benefits too. Robyn
For some reason, the quote feature seems to be broken on my computer and I'm reduced to making my quotes look like yours above. I hope it will be fixed soon.
Be that as it may, I think you present a real problem. Compensation for any line of employment is determined by market forces in America. The problem is what happens when the market is completely broken. I'm not going to bore everyone by rehashing all the reasons I've given why market forces do a poor job of containing prices when it comes to health care. I think I have made it clear that it functions poorly and except for die-hard free market conservatives who can't accept there could ever be a situation where the market doesn't work satisfactorily, most people here at least get what I'm talking about.
My objection to the high salaries we see in health care is along these lines:
1. Because the market doesn't function well the salaries are higher in health care than virtually any other field. Its the rare lawyer where I live that earns an income of $300 K or $400K. Ninety-eight percent of us earn less than that and I read that the state average for attorneys is about $100 K.
2. Doctors have no more education than many people like scientists, researchers, and college professors, but generally earn multiples of these salaries.
3. The high salaries do not necessarily draw the people we want into health care. I'd be more interested in someone who genuinely liked and empathized with people than someone who was simply trying to land a 400K a year salary and who understood nothing but math and chemistry.
4. When you say an excellent doctor should receive $1,000 an hour its really quite arbitrary. Why not a $10,000 a hour? After all, what they do is "life saving". If that were the criteria than why are paramedics and police officers generally underpaid?
5. If we compare these salaries to what doctors and medical professionals earn in virtually any other country in the world, America tops the list. In fact, we have more specialist physicians than just about any country does per capita as well. The fact that we are at the top is one of the things that tells me these salaries are out whack.
6. Your fees for the other occupations you cite are high as well. I would suspect they are "top end" for big cities in this country. Its hardly typical of what goes on in America's heartland.
That is why routine surgical procedures cost 3 X more in this country than they do in other nations.
All this is not "doctor bashing" or jealousy. What it is an honest attempt to say that if we are going to get a handle on health care costs than we have to take a look at what components jack up medical costs. The truth, although some really don't want to face it, is that these high salaries are the major reason. Although, we have to also add in the salaries of hospital administrators and insurance company executives.
Not welfare recipients, but people who earn $15 an hour or less (and there are plenty of them) are simply being pushed aside and priced out of the market. We have a system that seems hellbent on providing ever more care to a smaller segment of the population at higher prices.
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) as a moderator to squelch the opinions of others that do not agree with yours.
