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Sure there are freeloaders, they exist in every facet of life. But we as a people and a nation cannot destitute a (growing, I'm afraid) chunk of the population because of a few - yes, it is a few - individuals. There are poor people in this country, it's a fact. People that their lifeline depends on Medicare and Medicaid for that matter. Sometimes it only takes a couple of paychecks not arriving to send someone to the "poor house". Think of 2008! How many hard working people that were about to retire lost not only their jobs, but also 2/3 of their 401K. What can they do? Find another job at 64? Even IF they do, they would not be getting anywhere near what they were making. And how about disabled people? No, we have to care for our seniors. They created what we as a nation have now. The very minimum of life's basic necessities have got to be guaranteed IF they worked hard their whole lives. If it's the freeloaders that are the problem, let's go after them. If that's the illegal immigrants, let's fix that. But, by God, let's not leave our seniors starve to death! It amazes me the level of individualism in this country.
Ok- so the 30-40 somethings gotta pay for the - let me see. The freeloaders - the poor - the disabled - the seniors - can you think of anyone else? And they're supposed to pay for their own health insurance too in your opinion (I reckon). This will not fly - and - if I were 35 - I'd really be pissed by this statement. Can you come up with something that's a bit more generation neutral? Robyn
Location: Finally escaped The People's Republic of California
11,314 posts, read 8,654,334 times
Reputation: 6391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55
But - now matter how you slice it - both amounts/percentages are way too high. And we have to try to get a handle on them. Robyn
This hits the proverbial nail squarely on it's head, as a Veteran myself I believe in a strong Military, yet when we spend more than the next several largest military spenders combined, our budget seems somewhat out of whack.
Medicare and Social Security are nessecities that we must continue to fund. The amount that an individual may have to spend on healthcare while in retirement is just to staggering. Perhaps if the medical proffesions would charge a resonable rate it would,nt be so bad. we have all heard or the $1000.00 aspirin........
Location: Los Angeles, but looking for my niche in ME, or OR
326 posts, read 433,755 times
Reputation: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55
Ok- so the 30-40 somethings gotta pay for the - let me see. The freeloaders - the poor - the disabled - the seniors - can you think of anyone else? And they're supposed to pay for their own health insurance too in your opinion (I reckon). This will not fly - and - if I were 35 - I'd really be pissed by this statement. Can you come up with something that's a bit more generation neutral? Robyn
For starters I would NEVER paint with the same brush "The freeloaders - the poor - the disabled - the seniors", and as we are at that, "the illegals" as you have mentioned in earlier post. And I tell you, I'm 20 years to retirement (at the very least), and with every pay check I get, I see the taxes that go to Medicare/Medicaid/SS and I feel PROUD that I am contributing a few bucks to the WELFARE of my people. I feel lucky I got a job that I'm pretty certain is secure, and I will not need to use these resources for a while. But need them I will, as will all of us, at one point or another, being 25 or 75.
- You know Robyn, I really like debating with you. I feel we can go on for hours with each contributing some good points.
Take it from here...
For those who are brave enough or have no other choice, emigrating to a country you love that has excellent healthcare is an option. Mexico is a top choice for seniors who need to stretch their retirement $$$$'s and healthcare can be had very reasonably ($125/mo) for full coverage, I have read. France has the best healthcare in the world and the paperwork to live full-time over there is surprisingly simple and healthcare very affordable. When it comes to seniors being able to afford to stay alive the future lies overseas rather than here at home, I'm sorry to say.
For starters I would NEVER paint with the same brush "The freeloaders - the poor - the disabled - the seniors", and as we are at that, "the illegals" as you have mentioned in earlier post. And I tell you, I'm 20 years to retirement (at the very least), and with every pay check I get, I see the taxes that go to Medicare/Medicaid/SS and I feel PROUD that I am contributing a few bucks to the WELFARE of my people. I feel lucky I got a job that I'm pretty certain is secure, and I will not need to use these resources for a while. But need them I will, as will all of us, at one point or another, being 25 or 75.
- You know Robyn, I really like debating with you. I feel we can go on for hours with each contributing some good points.
Take it from here...
Wgere do the medicaid pays come in your check. Social Securtiy you are contributing to your account as well as medicare when you get 65;or so they say.Really we all need to look on aprial 125 to really see jusy what we contribute tot eh federal busdget. I agree with you about contributing but with 49-to 51 per cenat payting nothing by april 15 that isn't as they say sustainable. the top 10% should pay 90% of taxes either;IMO. We can keeep spending while borrowing 40 cents opf evry dollar.I beleieve that everyone but diosable shoud pay something and agree to a tax increase if they want something. That ois really misssing these days.Having to do somehting to survive will give new meaning to alot of peope who dropout or yong women who see having a child to get entitlements as a path i life ;it really effects the values in this country.Our system more and more promotes not contributing ;IMO.We saw a example of thsi i the recent healthcare deabte;every proposal to have some payment from mnay of those specail interest gropus who support the bill;also refused to pay any portition of the cost.Now we see the lining up for exceptions and them being granted.
The bottom line is this country is broke and we need to stop the bleeding. Things cannot go on like they are, $14 trillion in debt. The government cannot nor should not run anything, they screw it up. The free market system works great as long as the gov't doesn't interfer.
This hits the proverbial nail squarely on it's head, as a Veteran myself I believe in a strong Military, yet when we spend more than the next several largest military spenders combined, our budget seems somewhat out of whack.
Medicare and Social Security are nessecities that we must continue to fund. The amount that an individual may have to spend on healthcare while in retirement is just to staggering. Perhaps if the medical proffesions would charge a resonable rate it would,nt be so bad. we have all heard or the $1000.00 aspirin........
Cali BassMan--I totally agree with you on cutting military spending and I would throw in our worthless "star trek" space program (NASA) to be cut since we spend way to much $$$ on that. I do not know what percent of the budget it is, however I am sure between the two it could help the quagmire we are in.
Robyn, I just retired from one of the giant pharmaceutical companies (we have an MS drug that is almost ready to hit the market) and it's all about the MONEY. You are right, they do not care if they market "rat poison" (btw, that is one of the ingredients in One of the larger selling anti clotting products which is worth billions). Drug Companies have one of the strongest lobbies in America and the CEO's of these companies go on to be the senior leaders of the FDA, which is a worthless organization. I think they should reconstitute that organization to save more tax dollars.
Ok- so the 30-40 somethings gotta pay for the - let me see. The freeloaders - the poor - the disabled - the seniors - can you think of anyone else? And they're supposed to pay for their own health insurance too in your opinion (I reckon). This will not fly - and - if I were 35 - I'd really be pissed by this statement. Can you come up with something that's a bit more generation neutral? Robyn
Yes, that's the way it works Robyn. When you are young you are basically working to contribute to the poor, disabled and elderly. Just like your parents helped to provide for you when they were young, and their parents for them. This is the way it works in most civilized industrial countries.
I don't think the system itself is a bad system. It is a very needed and humane system. However, we do have some other extraneous burdens on the system that need to be addressed and corrected.
I am extremely concerned with the deficit and have been for many years before it was an issue with most. However, there are better ways to correct our wrongs than taking a chopping block to medicare and leaving our seniors, many of which are living in near poverty all ready and leaving them to the mercy of our private for profit insurance companies. (or worse yet, without the means to pay for any health care)
Ryan's approach to fixing the problem is to just unload the problem. This is not humane. I am sure reform could be achieved with some real effort on the part of congress.
Also, our deficit is a shared problem and every rock must be looked under for savings or elimination and yes taxes need to be increased for a period of time until we get out of this mess.
Ok- so the 30-40 somethings gotta pay for the - let me see. The freeloaders - the poor - the disabled - the seniors - can you think of anyone else? And they're supposed to pay for their own health insurance too in your opinion (I reckon). This will not fly - and - if I were 35 - I'd really be pissed by this statement. Can you come up with something that's a bit more generation neutral? Robyn
Robyn,
Everyone has to pay not just the 30-40 somethings. All the seniors were once 30-40 something. And yes, they did pay their shares of the expenses. This is what a we all do as a country. Do you suggest the 30-40s go form their own country and move to the "OTHER" countries when they are old, sick or disabled?
Yes, that's the way it works Robyn. When you are young you are basically working to contribute to the poor, disabled and elderly. Just like your parents helped to provide for you when they were young, and their parents for them. This is the way it works in most civilized industrial countries.
I don't think the system itself is a bad system. It is a very needed and humane system. However, we do have some other extraneous burdens on the system that need to be addressed and corrected.
I am extremely concerned with the deficit and have been for many years before it was an issue with most. However, there are better ways to correct our wrongs than taking a chopping block to medicare and leaving our seniors, many of which are living in near poverty all ready and leaving them to the mercy of our private for profit insurance companies. (or worse yet, without the means to pay for any health care)
Ryan's approach to fixing the problem is to just unload the problem. This is not humane. I am sure reform could be achieved with some real effort on the part of congress.
Also, our deficit is a shared problem and every rock must be looked under for savings or elimination and yes taxes need to be increased for a period of time until we get out of this mess.
No - it really isn't the way things have worked. When Medicare was first enacted - a whole lot more people died before they were 65 than they do today. Life expectancy at age 65 was shorter too. And there was little in the way of high tech health care. Ever see an old movie where someone has a heart attack and winds up in a hospital room. The person is basically resting - not hooked up to a lot of fancy machines and getting prepped for bypass surgery.
I know anecdotes aren't always useful. But perhaps this one is. My mother's side of the family has a terrible family history of early cardiac disease. People used to die routinely in their 50's and early 60's. With the advent of bypass surgery - her family life expectancy was extended by at least 10+ years. And this is everywhere in the family tree - family from California to the northeast US to Texas to Florida to Israel. People in her family now live long enough to die (expensively) from other things (she died from colon cancer - my uncle is 90 and has terrible Alzheimer's - etc.). Instead of dropping face down on the dinner table after having a massive heart attack when they're 61. Well - it's nice not to die when you're 61. Not so nice to live the last 5-10 years of your life doing nothing but seeing doctors or being in hospitals and nursing homes. So what should our approach be about these things?
What I've mentioned above doesn't even touch the issue of the sheer size of the baby boomer generation. So what we are looking at today is a whole lot more people who are over 65 - people who will live longer - people who will be consuming a lot of high tech care that didn't exist when my grandparents died.
Basically - what people do in other "civilized countries" - since they can't control the number of people who make it to a certain age - is to limit the amount of health care they consume - in some way shape or form - which in turn guarantees that people who need expensive health care to survive die. Of course - there are always people who will live to 100 in relatively good health. But if you've been around nursing homes or hospitals and the like - you'll see an awful lot of people in their 80's who are in pretty bad shape and basically held together by glue and duct tape and tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in high tech health care.
Of course - people in other "civilized" countries also frequently pay a lot more in taxes. In France (which is increasingly facing the same kinds of problems we're facing) - the combined payroll and personal taxes for health care are over 18% - and people need to buy private insurance policies as well to cover not-insignificant co-pays and deductibles. I don't think there's a single country in the world where all seniors - regardless of what they pay into a health care during their working years - get a free "E" ticket for any health care they want when they turn 65.
You won't get any argument from me about Ryan's proposal. It's hard enough shopping for a Medigap policy (especially when dealing with an elderly parent). And they're national standardized policies. I can't imagine shopping for primary care policies too - especially if the policies had to meet individual state health insurance policy standards. I mean imagine having 4 divorced parents all living in different states. Shopping for their health insurance policies would become a full time job!
But we all have to realize that something has to give. All people - except the poorest of the poor - have to pay more for medical care. All people - except the poorest of the poor - have to pay more in taxes. And unless and until we as a country are rolling in dough - all people have to accept limits on what the government will pay for in terms of medical care.
I'm willing to share - to do my bit. I don't have any problems with that. What I do have problems with is the idea that somehow going after "rich people" (basically defined as upper middle class people and up - and perhaps including the middle class people who were frugal during their working lives and saved a lot) can be squeezed enough to pay for everyone else. We have to go after the middle class too - just like Willie Sutton robbed banks - because "that's where the money is".
BTW - just curious - how old are you? And who do you think should pay higher taxes (and what kinds of taxes should they be)? Robyn
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I think they should reconstitute that organization to save more tax dollars.
