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But now I actually have experience downgrading a job class from bachelors degree required to bachelors degree preferred. And I did precisely motivated by the bolded sentiment. Long story short, the associates degree people we tried crashed, although were minimally salvageable. The high school graduates crashed and BURNED. They were not even close to capable of doing the work, requiring so much handholding from me as to make it better for them not to work.
That is due more to the selection effect of education than the didactic effect of education. People with higher intelligence generally achieve higher credentials. The credential is a signal of fluid intelligence more than crystallized intelligence.
That is due more to the selection effect of education than the didactic effect of education. People with higher intelligence generally achieve higher credentials. The credential is a signal of fluid intelligence more than crystallized intelligence.
It wasn't really their intelligence. I was able to gauge from the interviews if they were reasonably intelligent enough. It was their inexperience with doing "grown up" jobs, which was interesting given most of these people were 25-35. We take for granted that the process of doing school assignments - finding information, synthesizing it, reporting on it in a useful way, etc... is a learned skill and the more you do it the better you get at it.
I thought that people who had graduated high school and then worked as a waiter or whatever could be trained to do the reports we needed. They could.... if I spent months or years training them. Even more frustrating was their inability to handle anything unforeseen without specific instructions. I'd teach them to do "specific thing X" but then they'd get hit with YZ and have no idea what to do and just wait for me to give them instructions. The college graduates have this problem much less frequently.
I had to take a step back and realize that at age 16-18 before I went through college, I probably wouldn't have been any better.
Last edited by redguard57; 05-01-2021 at 07:29 PM..
If you want to test it, dig up some of your own high school coursework and see if you think the 16 year old you could be trained by the current you to be a lawyer. I bet not. I'm embarassed by the work I did in high school relative to what I was capable of after grad school.
I thought much like you. I said almost the same bolded quote.
I actually have. My 10th grade papers were actually not far off my current writing style and my teacher's comments so reflect. Unfortunately that teacher and my father had a hoedown at Open House in October or November 1972. In March or April 1973 she blackballed me from the History AP course. I took the AP test anyway, earning a perfect score. But my review of my papers is actually how I formed my views on the subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57
But now I actually have experience downgrading a job class from bachelors degree required to bachelors degree preferred. And I did precisely motivated by the bolded sentiment. Long story short, the associates degree people we tried crashed, although were minimally salvageable. The high school graduates crashed and BURNED. They were not even close to capable of doing the work, requiring so much handholding from me as to make it better for them not to work. We put back the bachelor degree requirement, and upgraded to masters preferred. Did much better. I was criticized for championing the downgrade.
Interesting life story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57
Ben Franklin was an extraordinary person. The Elon Musk of his time. Better even. What he did, very few people are capable of.
No doubt. With John and Abigail Adams not far behind.
I actually have. My 10th grade papers were actually not far off my current writing style and my teacher's comments so reflect. Unfortunately that teacher and my father had a hoedown at Open House in October or November 1972. In March or April 1973 she blackballed me from the History AP course. I took the AP test anyway, earning a perfect score. But my review of my papers is actually how I formed my views on the subject.
Interesting life story.
No doubt. With John and Abigail Adams not far behind.
Well maybe you are an extraordinary person.
But having taught thousands of 15-25 year olds over the years I can assure you that few could be trained to be practicing lawyers within a year with only 12th grade level academic training. Regardless of how sharp they were. I'd estimate I encounter maybe 5-10 per year out of hundreds that might have a shot of doing such a thing. The rest need years more training.
More often than jobs, I have tried to give undergraduates the kinds of assignments common to graduate students and they usually become overwhelmed quite quickly. Again, needing considerable direction and guidance.
I think you're taking for granted how obsessively disciplined those historical figures were. Yeah, Abraham Lincoln taught himself to be a lawyer...but he read like crazy far beyond what normal people did then or now. He was also naturally gifted. John Adams... that guy had the equivalent knowledge and published books of multiple PhDs. These are extraordinary, highly driven people you're talking about.
Last edited by redguard57; 05-02-2021 at 08:48 PM..
I think a college education is fine, if its free as part of an employment contract, or if you can work your way through college with no debt at the end. You will probably learn more life skills from that peon job than the university. But alas the peon job wont give you a fancy piece paper to hang on the wall and impress your friends.
Other than college degree impressing your friends and enemies, in long run, you would be better off going to university library every day its open for four years and read everything you can. One thing about universities, they do tend to have very impressive libraries. And they are usually mostly open to the public for free though you cant check stuff out without being an official student. Knowledge is true wealth, not a signature on piece paper declaring you are now an expert in the arcane arts. A paper you went deep into debt to get and basically PAID the guy to sign. All the modern degree shows is that you are a sucker with a lot of debt to pay off. Since you have all that debt, guaranteed you will likely show up to job on time everyday to service that debt. You know, indentured servitude. You owe, you owe, you owe, so off to work you go. Back in the day before you needed a degree to flip burgers, it was also why employers looked for "married family men" cause they had to pay to support those families. Thus more reliable and would supposedly try to work harder.
Trump University was a cynical joke, but most real universities arent too far above that. They are all looking to sell you something you already have for a steep price, only with a fancy frameable sheepskin you can hang on wall to impress others. Remember the Wizard of Oz giving Scarecrow a diploma....... if he only had a brain.... Now imagine the Scarecrow having to make the equivalent of new car payments to the Wizard for the rest of his life for that piece of paper.... or to Glenda the good banker of the north... Ah the wonders of capitalism....
I think a college education is fine, if its free as part of an employment contract, or if you can work your way through college with no debt at the end. You will probably learn more life skills from that peon job than the university. But alas the peon job wont give you a fancy piece paper to hang on the wall and impress your friends.
Other than college degree impressing your friends and enemies, in long run, you would be better off going to university library every day its open for four years and read everything you can. One thing about universities, they do tend to have very impressive libraries. And they are usually mostly open to the public for free though you cant check stuff out without being an official student. Knowledge is true wealth, not a signature on piece paper declaring you are now an expert in the arcane arts. A paper you went deep into debt to get and basically PAID the guy to sign. All the modern degree shows is that you are a sucker with a lot of debt to pay off. Since you have all that debt, guaranteed you will likely show up to job on time everyday to service that debt. You know, indentured servitude. You owe, you owe, you owe, so off to work you go. Back in the day before you needed a degree to flip burgers, it was also why employers looked for "married family men" cause they had to pay to support those families. Thus more reliable and would supposedly try to work harder.
Trump University was a cynical joke, but most real universities arent too far above that. They are all looking to sell you something you already have for a steep price, only with a fancy frameable sheepskin you can hang on wall to impress others. Remember the Wizard of Oz giving Scarecrow a diploma....... if he only had a brain.... Now imagine the Scarecrow having to make the equivalent of new car payments to the Wizard for the rest of his life for that piece of paper.... or to Glenda the good banker of the north... Ah the wonders of capitalism....
Wow! Horrible take.
I never hung my undergrad diploma on the wall or tried to impress anyone with it. Most people I know only parade their college around when it comes to cheering for the sports team.
My grad school diploma is on the wall in my home office because I am proud of the work I did and I like to remind myself that I can accomplish difficult tasks. I also never went into debt for any of my degrees. My $200,000 grad school degree had a two year ROI.
You may think that having a diploma makes someone a sucker, but the data suggest that you are absolutely wrong. Lifetime earnings are much higher for those with that piece of paper than those without.
Your suggestion of going to a library and reading is decent for knowledge accumulation, not so great for getting a job. Even then, you miss a lot of the practical knowledge. In grad school, I learned as much from dialogues with my fellow students and professors as I did from the readings. You do not get that from simply reading a journal article or textbook.
Hiring manager: “The job description says it requires a degree”
Applicant: “I go to the library a lot.”
I think a college education is fine, if its free as part of an employment contract, or if you can work your way through college with no debt at the end. You will probably learn more life skills from that peon job than the university. But alas the peon job wont give you a fancy piece paper to hang on the wall and impress your friends.
Other than college degree impressing your friends and enemies, in long run, you would be better off going to university library every day its open for four years and read everything you can. One thing about universities, they do tend to have very impressive libraries. And they are usually mostly open to the public for free though you cant check stuff out without being an official student. Knowledge is true wealth, not a signature on piece paper declaring you are now an expert in the arcane arts. A paper you went deep into debt to get and basically PAID the guy to sign. All the modern degree shows is that you are a sucker with a lot of debt to pay off. Since you have all that debt, guaranteed you will likely show up to job on time everyday to service that debt. You know, indentured servitude. You owe, you owe, you owe, so off to work you go. Back in the day before you needed a degree to flip burgers, it was also why employers looked for "married family men" cause they had to pay to support those families. Thus more reliable and would supposedly try to work harder.
Trump University was a cynical joke, but most real universities arent too far above that. They are all looking to sell you something you already have for a steep price, only with a fancy frameable sheepskin you can hang on wall to impress others. Remember the Wizard of Oz giving Scarecrow a diploma....... if he only had a brain.... Now imagine the Scarecrow having to make the equivalent of new car payments to the Wizard for the rest of his life for that piece of paper.... or to Glenda the good banker of the north... Ah the wonders of capitalism....
Due to certification inflation, a college degree is now required for many jobs that don’t really need it. If one was to argue that that piece of paper is used to screen for valuable traits needed in the work force such as work ethic, persistence, and some level of intellectual comprehension, then those things can be addressed at the high school level. Which it was, when standards were higher for a high school degree.
Perhaps we should get back to that, and remove the college degree requirement for certain jobs for which it provides little to no utility vs. the time, money, and effort involved, with questionable results.
Remove the college degree requirement for certain jobs and strengthen the value of high school diploma - or at least restore it to its past value. How many ill-suited kids don’t even complete their attempts towards a college degree, and are now worse off than before?
Oxford defines Critical Thinking as...."the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment."
My old-timer math professor friend describes Critical Thinking as...."thinking hard about what one is thinking about and precisely why."
Guiding kids, and adults FTM, towards a structured critical thinking orthodoxy isn't difficult. Across philosophy and science - especially research, "Descarte's Method" provides a structure/set of step towards highly refined critical thinking.
Here's a subset of Descartes thinking about critical thinking.......Descartes was focused on math and the development of philosophies and reason but the logic-stream holds-up throughout life, business and work in my experience.
This is my take on a small bit of Descartes work that drives well organized critical thinking..........
1. Certainty - accept as true only those things that are more or less indisputable.
2. Division - divide all questions, thoughts and ideas into small easily understandable parts.
3. Orderliness - every facet across an idea or thought must stand as a defendable truth on its own. Begin with the simple and work towards the complex.
4. Review - review all bits across a thought, idea or topic. Formulate conclusions(s) bound by the first 3 items and then periodically re-review.
I never hung my undergrad diploma on the wall or tried to impress anyone with it. Most people I know only parade their college around when it comes to cheering for the sports team.
My grad school diploma is on the wall in my home office because I am proud of the work I did and I like to remind myself that I can accomplish difficult tasks. I also never went into debt for any of my degrees. My $200,000 grad school degree had a two year ROI.
You may think that having a diploma makes someone a sucker, but the data suggest that you are absolutely wrong. Lifetime earnings are much higher for those with that piece of paper than those without.
Your suggestion of going to a library and reading is decent for knowledge accumulation, not so great for getting a job. Even then, you miss a lot of the practical knowledge. In grad school, I learned as much from dialogues with my fellow students and professors as I did from the readings. You do not get that from simply reading a journal article or textbook.
Hiring manager: “The job description says it requires a degree”
Applicant: “I go to the library a lot.”
That does not seem like a recipe for success.
+1.
A debilitating problem with that guy's proclamation is vanishingly few humans have enough self-actualization drive to actually hit the library and or internet with enough focus and intensity to even vaguely mimic a BA or BS degree let alone graduate or professional schooling.
And towards your point higher level education is as much about taking classes one does not like and enduring professors and GAs one does not like and of course all of the secondary/unoffical educational bits are absolutely invaluable.........group work, intense probative discussion, time management, exposure to people who are way different etc.
But having taught thousands of 15-25 year olds over the years I can assure you that few could be trained to be practicing lawyers within a year with only 12th grade level academic training. Regardless of how sharp they were. I'd estimate I encounter maybe 5-10 per year out of hundreds that might have a shot of doing such a thing. The rest need years more training.
More often than jobs, I have tried to give undergraduates the kinds of assignments common to graduate students and they usually become overwhelmed quite quickly. Again, needing considerable direction and guidance.
I think you're taking for granted how obsessively disciplined those historical figures were. Yeah, Abraham Lincoln taught himself to be a lawyer...but he read like crazy far beyond what normal people did then or now. He was also naturally gifted. John Adams... that guy had the equivalent knowledge and published books of multiple PhDs. These are extraordinary, highly driven people you're talking about.
I may have exaggerated when I said "any reasonably intelligent 16 year old." I'll grant you that. I think, however, that many professional educational requirements are onerous, and designed to erect barriers to entry rather than ensuring qualification. .I practice opposite many an attorney whose intelligence and diligence I really wonder about. I think, more realistic than a hypothetical 16 year old doing this, law school of business or accounting training could be rolled into the final two years of college, and perhaps high school trimmed back to three years. Granted, this would break a lot of union hearts.
I am not a doctor so I don't know about medical school and whether than can be compressed.
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