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9/11 was a sea changing event. Results:
1) Never ending wars.
2) Patriot Act largely rescinded the Constitution when they want it to.
3) Rise of SWAT - 100 raids a day.
4) Militarization of police force.
5) Civil asset forfeiture is now larger than ordinary criminal activity. Government shows the little guy how the big boys get 'er done.
6) Budget surplus got turned into a mind numbing 21 trillion dollar debt. We elect a businessman. He goes "all in" with more debt.
7) The government declares defacto war on the American public. Because? Who knows? Because they can? Grab it all surveillance is employed after the real president, Chaaney(sp), makes a post 9/11 phone call to the NSA.
8) Air travel becomes a nightmare.
9) American air travel is shut down on 9/12 so the good friends of the Bush family, the Bin Laden family, can comfortably fly out.
10) Incarceration rates grow to seven times the rate of the 70's according to Jimmy Carter. The governments employment of grab it all surveillance proves to be a smashing success in favor of the for profit prison industry.
The Long War will end when one side is defeated. Which side do you want to win?
Nearly ten trillion in debt added during the Obama Administration.
"War is two gangs killing each other. Patriotism is thinking that your gang is blameless."
This isn't a real war though. It is a systematic slaughter of Israel's enemies at a costs of trillions of dollars and millions of lives. Let me guess though. Your side is blameless.
"War is two gangs killing each other. Patriotism is thinking that your gang is blameless."
This isn't a real war though. It is a systematic slaughter of Israel's enemies at a costs of trillions of dollars and millions of lives. Let me guess though. Your side is blameless.
I think we have sufficient evidence to deduce that Israel's enemies are also our own. The ones which vow to destroy Israel also call for Death to America.
Assuming a similar terrorist attack doesn't occur:
- More discussion about the Electoral College
- Possibly a trade war against China. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz were taking a hardline against China before 9/11.
- More media coverage of Enron. This could hurt Cheney, and Bush by extension.
- More focus on the Bush's tax cuts, the environment, same-sex marriage, stem-cell research, and the dot-com bust in 2004.
- Continued bombings in Iraq, but no invasion.
- No PATRIOT Act
- The US's position on the world stage would remain stronger without Iraq alienating everyone.
- The protests against trade and globalization would continue.
- The Republicans would loose seats in Congress in 2002
gee, wonder what will happen in 2 short years if aliens attack? fifty cent becomes president? not possible? really? how probable was it that the very man who was fired from the FBI for his report listing Osama bin Laden as the prime candidate for more and greater terrorism died on 9/11 on his very first day on the job as the new director of security at the twin towers? there are odder things than we can dream of that do occur. why bother with what if's? it seems like we never learn from any of the mistakes of the past.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bawac34618
We are fast approaching 2020 which means were will soon be two decades into the 21st century. Looking back over American history since 2000, what do you think would have been different had 9/11 not occurred? What would have been the same?
Here are things I think would have been different.
-No Patriot Act, no war in Iraq
-Bush would have been a one-term President and Howard Dean would have won in 2004
-Islamophobia would have remained at pre-9/11 levels (nothing like it is today or has been since the attacks).
-Gay marriage, DADT repeal both would have happened between 3-5 years sooner
-Polarization between liberals and conservatives would not be quite as deep as it is today
-Television wouldn't have been dominated by serial dramas dealing with terrorism during the 2000s (think Kiefer Sutherland's "24").
Here are things I think would have remained the same
-The Great Recession. Though with Dean in office between 2004 and 2008 things might have been put into place sooner causing the recession to be more mild, there was no avoiding that downtown being that it was the result of decades of excess dating as far back as the Reagan years.
-Pop music/movies; Other than in 2002 and early 2003, pop culture wasn't affected by 9/11 as much as other areas of society, with the exception of serial dramas which I mentioned above.
-Social media bubbles; Following the advent of social media, there was really no way to prevent the polarization and sorting of the population that is currently underway as a result.
What are your thoughts?
As a fan of the alt-history genre myself, I'll say that if 9/11 never occurred
-Bush would have concentrated on domestic policy more than foreign policy
--Iraq? open question. He might have went into Iraq anyway, but not nearly as soon and with much more opposition. This one's coin-flip odds.
--I say Bush is a two-termer anyway. If Iraq didn't get him out of the WH, then it's hard to see anything else doing so, especially since 2004 was an economic recovery year (I hate to say this, but this is my best honest guess).
--Deficits, still happening due to the GOP "tax cut" mantra/ideology. But without an Iraq War (perhaps, see foreign relations) it wouldn't have been as bad
-- Lehman Brothers/Finanical Crisis. Would likely have happened anyway, especially with a two-term Bush. He supplied the other half of the equation needed to more or less invite the 2008 collapse (deregulation, the first half being a Clinton-era policy encouraging home ownership among those who couldn't afford it)
--Foreign relations. He'd be supporting Israel, and perhaps tangling with China and Russia, and probably Iran. Certainly he'd do something else to P.O. Europe for sure, and probably somebody in the Middle East (he withdrew from the Kyoto Climate Treaty before 9/11). Due to his (or at least Cheney's or Rumsfeld's bull-in-the-china-shop foreign tone in foreign policy). Whether there'd be some other Mideast war we'd've got into anyway (maybe Iraq, maybe not), I can't speculate. Almost certainly there'd be no ISIS, especially IF (admittedly a big IF) Bush never went into Iraq.
Obama. He still would have won, wars or not. The financial crisis alone, plus an unpopular-by-now-anyway Bush would have assured his victory. With a recession happening anyway, he'd likely deal with it the same way he did in real life. Libya for sure, happened anyway. Arab Spring, also happened anyway. Maybe he'd focus more attention on Russia/Ukraine and the Korean Peninsula. Tea Party, would have happened anyway (whatever interpretation why doesn't matter. no matter your perspective, I think this would happen anyway). Obama probably still would have been largely a domestic president anyway, though still not aloof in foreign relations.
Trump. Hate to say it, but he probably would have been elected if Clinton was in office. 9/11 had nothing to do with either of those two running for office. Trump would have focused solely on immigration, the wall, nativism, etc. Just MAGA-ism minus the scaremongering about Muslims (assuming no Iraq War in any form, but even this is a big uncertainty). The only plausible alternative is if Sanders got the nomination instead. THEN that would've been the truly ultimate election. But again, 9/11 had little to nothing to do with Trump nor Clinton.
Trump. Hate to say it, but he probably would have been elected if Clinton was in office. 9/11 had nothing to do with either of those two running for office. Trump would have focused solely on immigration, the wall, nativism, etc. Just MAGA-ism minus the scaremongering about Muslims (assuming no Iraq War in any form, but even this is a big uncertainty). The only plausible alternative is if Sanders got the nomination instead. THEN that would've been the truly ultimate election. But again, 9/11 had little to nothing to do with Trump nor Clinton.
I'm not so sure. I and many Americans believe that Obama's policy was to appease the Muslim world. Perhaps he would not have felt that necessary were it not for 9/11. That policy alone revulsed many people. And bear in mind I voted for Hillary.
We are fast approaching 2020 which means were will soon be two decades into the 21st century. Looking back over American history since 2000, what do you think would have been different had 9/11 not occurred? What would have been the same?
Here are things I think would have been different.
-No Patriot Act, no war in Iraq.
There would have been war in Iraq and Afghanistan, because your Geo-Political Strategy requires it, just as it requires an eventual confrontation with Iran.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banbuk77
-The Great Recession. Though with Dean in office between 2004 and 2008 things might have been put into place sooner causing the recession to be more mild, there was no avoiding that downtown being that it was the result of decades of excess dating as far back as the Reagan years.
The recession was caused by a reallocation of Capital from the US to southeast Asia. There's nothing government could have done to stop it.
As a fan of the alt-history genre myself, I'll say that if 9/11 never occurred
-Bush would have concentrated on domestic policy more than foreign policy
-- Lehman Brothers/Finanical Crisis. Would likely have happened anyway, especially with a two-term Bush. He supplied the other half of the equation needed to more or less invite the 2008 collapse (deregulation, the first half being a Clinton-era policy encouraging home ownership among those who couldn't afford it)
Democrats in Congress blocked Bush's attempt to tighten lending requirements.
--Foreign relations. .... he withdrew from the Kyoto Climate Treaty before 9/11
From Wikipedia: "The US signed the Protocol on 12 November 1998, during the Clinton presidency. To become binding in the US, however, the treaty had to be ratified by the Senate, which had already passed the 1997 non-binding Byrd-Hagel Resolution, expressing disapproval of any international agreement that did not require developing countries to make emission reductions and "would seriously harm the economy of the United States". The resolution passed 95-0. Therefore, even though the Clinton administration signed the treaty, it was never submitted to the Senate for ratification.
Corrections added.
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