What defines a person as 'educated' or 'uneducated'? (doctorate, PhD, bachelors)

[lkb0714]

Originally Posted by MOKAN

When you say "graduate level" do you mean grad school? Do you think some college grads are 'uneducated'? Do you think all high school grads are 'uneducated'?

Graduate level is grad school yes.

Uneducated is not the opposite of well educated. It is a spectrum, not a dichotomy. So if you are not well educated it does not mean you are uneducated.

I think there are uneducated people at all levels of education but the proportion goes down the farther up you go in academia.

I understand a person with a basic education does not have the same cultivation and overall experience as a person who has attended college or is 'formally educated', just as a person who has attained a graduate or professional school education is yet more refined than one with just college graduation. I'm just having a hard time thinking of so many smart, knowledgeable, and successful people who aren't formally educated as 'uneducated'.

No, they just may no be well educated. Graduate school is unique. It is as unlike college as college is unlike high school. It is almost impossible to be well educated in an area without the discourse and direct challenge offered by graduate work. You can read every book on a subject and it cannot begin to compare with the inherent mastery you need to go through defense of a thesis. Now that does not mean every person with a graduate degree is well educated, just that it is very hard to be well educated in an subject without going through that process

[lkb0714]

Originally Posted by MOKAN

I don't know if it's quite the conspiracy theory you suggest, but I do think there's truth to what you're saying. Many or most college grads aren't elitist. Many work in fields that do not require a college education, some even work blue-collar jobs. In the past, many college-educated teachers and nurses have married blue-collar guys. However, I think that's changing or has changed, as it's become difficult to find a decent-paying career without a degree. At the same time, I think there's a lot of elitist rhetoric, polarization, geographic segregation, and forgetting that we're human first, degreed second all going on. None of this is good because the non-college crowd is increasingly cut off from influence of those that have gone to college and are being increasingly marginalized. When college-grads and companies they work for largely cluster together, segregated to themselves, this also cuts off the less-educated off from spin-off economic activity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/31/us...pagewanted=all

While I agree that there is a divide between those who have the power and everyone else it is foolish to think that the division is based on having a college degree. There are certainly other, more divisive issues at play.

Second, it used to be that those without degrees aspired to become more educated. Those who had degrees were not belittled, but their position was what other hoped to gain for themselves and their children. Now those who pursue intellectual attainment are frequently labeled as elitist, and made to be something to be looked down upon. Well, I get why that is happening. Those with the power realize that the key to start taking it back is being well educated. If you make being well educated a negative trait in the eyes of the masses, it makes them easier to control.

[MOKAN]

Originally Posted by lkb0714

Graduate level is grad school yes.

I wasn't asking you what graduate school is, but rather to clarify.

Uneducated is not the opposite of well educated. It is a spectrum, not a dichotomy. So if you are not well educated it does not mean you are uneducated.

I agree. But since the beginning, the word that's been discussed in this thread is 'educated'. The way your posts have read is as if you didn't acknowledge a spectrum and were implying those without college and even some without graduate-level educations do not qualify as 'educated' and thus are uneducated.

I think there are uneducated people at all levels of education but the proportion goes down the farther up you go in academia.

Agreed.

No, they just may no be well educated. Graduate school is unique. It is as unlike college as college is unlike high school. It is almost impossible to be well educated in an area without the discourse and direct challenge offered by graduate work. You can read every book on a subject and it cannot begin to compare with the inherent mastery you need to go through defense of a thesis. Now that does not mean every person with a graduate degree is well educated, just that it is very hard to be well educated in an subject without going through that process

Until this point, you didn't seem to be making a distinction between various levels of 'educated'. You seemed to be implying that those without a formal (college) or graduate-level of education don't qualify as simply 'educated'. I agree there's definitely a difference between a HS education, college education, and grad-school education. That's a given. So ultimately I agree with you. I don't think somebody who is not college or otherwise highly educated is necessarily uneducated. However, I do think a college education has, for a very long time, been becoming the standard qualifier for 'educated' as it's commonly used. The commonly used 'educated professionals' pretty much always implies college educated. All that said, I do think a university is a significant thing and a person having exposure or lack thereof is significant.

[MOKAN]

Originally Posted by lkb0714

While I agree that there is a divide between those who have the power and everyone else it is foolish to think that the division is based on having a college degree. There are certainly other, more divisive issues at play.

I wasn't talking about a divide of those with and without power, just society in general.

Second, it used to be that those without degrees aspired to become more educated. Those who had degrees were not belittled, but their position was what other hoped to gain for themselves and their children. Now those who pursue intellectual attainment are frequently labeled as elitist, and made to be something to be looked down upon. Well, I get why that is happening. Those with the power realize that the key to start taking it back is being well educated. If you make being well educated a negative trait in the eyes of the masses, it makes them easier to control.

I don't think truly educated and well-rounded people are necessarily eltist. It may be those who aren't as educated as they think they are just because they attained a BA in something relatively easy and possibly worthless in the real world, that take on an elitist attitude. But there's definitely an increasing divide in college and non-college educated members of society on a personal and societal scale.

As for your conspiracy theory...acknowledging that not everybody is college material and not everybody needs to go to college and recognizing those people need jobs too....I'm not sure that's trying to take away the power from the people by keeping them uneducated. It's just reality.

What makes you think Republicans (or whatever faction you believe it is) are plotting to systematically keep as much of the population possible uneducated?

I'm assuming it has to do with Santorum's comments and/or Republican opposition to Obama's idea of foregiveable student loans (which, actually seems like a good idea to keep kids who may do well in college from forgoing the idea altogether after hearing horrific student loan debt stories..genius if that's the intention).

[lkb0714]

Originally Posted by MOKAN

I wasn't asking you what graduate school is, but rather to clarify.

Clarify what? What else can graduate level mean besides grad school?

I agree. But since the beginning, the word that's been discussed in this thread is 'educated'. The way your posts have read is as if you didn't acknowledge a spectrum and were implying those without college and even some without graduate-level educations do not qualify as 'educated' and thus are uneducated.

Originally Posted by lkb0714

Education is going to vary depending on the realm we are discussing.

I am well educated in science and readily admit I have far less education in most anything else.

Actually my very first post in this thread used WELL educated.

Until this point, you didn't seem to be making a distinction between various levels of 'educated'. You seemed to be implying that those without a formal (college) or graduate-level of education don't qualify as simply 'educated'. I agree there's definitely a difference between a HS education, college education, and grad-school education. That's a given. So ultimately I agree with you. I don't think somebody who is not college or otherwise highly educated is necessarily uneducated. However, I do think a college education has, for a very long time, been becoming the standard qualifier for 'educated' as it's commonly used. The commonly used 'educated professionals' pretty much always implies college educated. All that said, I do think a university is a significant thing and a person having exposure or lack thereof is significant.

Please see above.

[lkb0714]

Originally Posted by MOKAN

I wasn't talking about a divide of those with and without power, just society in general.



I don't think truly educated and well-rounded people are necessarily eltist. It may be those who aren't as educated as they think they are just because they attained a BA in something relatively easy and possibly worthless in the real world, that take on an elitist attitude. But there's definitely an increasing divide in college and non-college educated members of society on a personal and societal scale.

As for your conspiracy theory...acknowledging that not everybody is college material and not everybody needs to go to college and recognizing those people need jobs too....I'm not sure that's trying to take away the power from the people by keeping them uneducated. It's just reality.

What makes you think Republicans (or whatever faction you believe it is) are plotting to systematically keep as much of the population possible uneducated?

I'm assuming it has to do with Santorum's comments and/or Republican opposition to Obama's idea of foregiveable student loans (which, actually seems like a good idea to keep kids who may do well in college from forgoing the idea altogether after hearing horrific student loan debt stories..genius if that's the intention).

You really seem to want to read far more into people's posts and then ignore what was written. It is not a political agenda, it is a social one. And it is not based on a party or even specific politicians but a shift away from appreciating an education for its own sake. Now education is just a step to get the right job, it used to be education was valued just because people believed it was better to be educated than not.

[DewDropInn]

Originally Posted by lkb0714

Now education is just a step to get the right job, it used to be education was valued just because people believed it was better to be educated than not.

Very, very true.

I often have that thought in my mind while reading these threads.

[MOKAN]

Originally Posted by lkb0714

Clarify what? What else can graduate level mean besides grad school?

Actually my very first post in this thread used WELL educated.

Please see above.

I'm not asking you to clarify anything. That only happened back when you made this post, which wasn't as clear as it could be. You clarified when I asked, already, dude. You said you meant grad school by "graduate level of education", which you implied one has to have a graduate-school education in to qualify as 'educated', the work we've been using the most and I started the thread with.

Originally Posted by lkb0714

When someone is said to be "educated" to me that means a formal, graduate level of education. It is a specific level of education that cannot be found on the internet or in a book. It requires professionals and a the unique climate or exchange of ideas found in academia.

I went back and read your initial post, which I had looked over. I agree with what you had to say there, but just think it's such a given, which is why I looked over it.

[MOKAN]

Originally Posted by lkb0714

You really seem to want to read far more into people's posts and then ignore what was written. It is not a political agenda, it is a social one. And it is not based on a party or even specific politicians but a shift away from appreciating an education for its own sake. Now education is just a step to get the right job, it used to be education was valued just because people believed it was better to be educated than not.

I actually partly agree with what you've said here about education.

But this is exactly what you said regarding your conspiracy theory:

Originally Posted by lkb0714

While I agree that there is a divide between those who have the power and everyone else it is foolish to think that the division is based on having a college degree. There are certainly other, more divisive issues at play.

Second, it used to be that those without degrees aspired to become more educated. Those who had degrees were not belittled, but their position was what other hoped to gain for themselves and their children. Now those who pursue intellectual attainment are frequently labeled as elitist, and made to be something to be looked down upon. Well, I get why that is happening. Those with the power realize that the key to start taking it back is being well educated. If you make being well educated a negative trait in the eyes of the masses, it makes them easier to control.

What you wrote implies that you believe a specific group "those with power" want to do whatever they can to keep the masses uneducated to control them. I think that's...well, just a conspiracy theory. You said I ignored parts of posts, which I'm not sure is true, but I noticed you didn't answer my question as to why you wrote and apparently believe what I highlighted in bold. Rather, you denied or softened what you said altogether.

I did read more into it than what you wrote. Your conspiracy theory is shared by others and it's usually attributed to Republicans, who have said things like not every kid needs to go to college, who oppose Obama's idea of foregiveable student loans, and who are often for trying out school vouchers.

That said, I think a college education has been more pushed and valued and saw as necessary in recent history more than EVER. So I don't know what you're even talking about. There's also push form some for education reform that would include non-college routes to success for kids who aren't college material or don't want to go. THAT is push for more education as well. College education is also respected. For the section of society who does snub college and the college educated, they've always been there. At any rate, I don't think it's driven by a conspiracy. Actually, for as long a major section of society has been college educated, towns and neighborhoods have been divided by blue collar and white collar. There's always been animosity. The only thing I can think of that's changed very recently is that massive student debt is used to fuel the anti-college rhetoric from those who have always been there.

But I'd like to hear you better explain what you said that I highlighted in bold. What makes you think anybody intentionally and maliciously wants a less education population?

[sohsocool]

Someone who is uneducated to me is someone who is illiterate and doesn't have basic high school education.'

I'm not going to call someone uneducated if they're racist (or just discriminatory in general) uneducated if they have basic education, just stupid. And stupid doesn't necessarily equal uneducated to me.