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I just don't find the masses as blameless as you seem to. They are one of the many contributors to their own destruction. And they often don't want to take responsibility for it. I have made sacrifices and choices that were financially risky, but have always accepted the fact I might be contributing to my own financial destruction. If it happens, I have no one to blame but myself.
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Amen. When many fell for the advertising, many more never did. What traits did the latter poses that the former lack?
I just don't find the masses as blameless as you seem to. They are one of the many contributors to their own destruction. And they often don't want to take responsibility for it. I have made sacrifices and choices that were financially risky, but have always accepted the fact I might be contributing to my own financial destruction. If it happens, I have no one to blame but myself.
And who is this "entity" that is measuring our success? It is up to each person to measure their own "success." "Material" is not a big goal for me - I prefer freedom as do many others. There is plenty of self-determination and individualism left in America. You just may be hanging out with the wrong crowds.
You are partly right here. There are many people who go to work and do as little as possible; never take additional training, never go to classes, never delay lunch 10 minutes to finish a goal, etc. I have seen many of that type. They also get jealous of anyone who does make the effort and gets ahead of them.
But the truth remains that some companies, some supervisors & managers make promises they do not intend to keep. After seeing that in several places I worked, I say keep up the good attitude, do best job possible, learn all you can. If your compensation does not improve after 1st year, start looking elsewhere. Do not spend years on end falling for empty promises. That will ruin your attitude & spirit.
Also, look for a 2nd job part time. That is extra income & a slight cushion if you face an unexpected layoff. Also widens your network. Everyone should stay connected as much as possible.
Last edited by jmellc; 01-25-2013 at 08:42 AM..
Reason: Add thought.
Interesting documentary.... But not really something I didn't know already (took plenty of marketing and psych classes). The history is very interesting though.
There will always be those who prey upon the weak. Some govt. regulations should be in place to protect people from themselves, without overly hampering the abilities of the self-determined, free thinkers. But the sheep do have some responsibility not to jump over the cliff. In the documentary, some (but not all) elected to smoke because they were vulnerable to the power of suggestion that cigarettes are a phallic representation of male power, just as many (but not all) were vulnerable to the suggestion one should treat their home equity as their personal bank account.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtn
Amen. When many fell for the advertising, many more never did. What traits did the latter poses that the former lack?
Agree, not everyone falls for it. Those who do not are rewarded. Those who are easily influenced or can not delay gratification are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmellc
But the truth remains that some companies, some supervisors & managers make promises they do not intend to keep. After seeing that in several places I worked, I say keep up the good attitude, do best job possible, learn all you can. If your compensation does not improve after 1st year, start looking elsewhere. Do not spend years on end falling for empty promises. That will ruin your attitude & spirit.
I don't think you can fully trust anyone when it comes to business or money. Promises are broken, ulterior motives are often there. There is little loyalty. Protecting yourself is of upmost importance. If one fails to protect themselves, they share some of the blame.
Basically what has happened to many is that they are in a 21st centruy america with skills that are 20th century and now former peasants in mnany countries how have skills to complete and the facities to do the work;unlike after WWII when even many industrial countries had been destroyed.They forget that the chinese;the koreans etc also want a better life style and are willing to compete to get it.We see a drop in basic skills by the rankig of education dropping aginst other coutnries. that creates a numbers problem in those lokig for what is left of 20th century skiled jobs which themselves ahve reduced i value because of what demand is for those products.Herny Ford brought the autombile to middle class by masking it affordable and that has not changed since.
Home equity is simply one form of investment and as such is just as subject to periodic management and reallocation as any other. There is also very little one can do to "delay gratification" in the case of sending kids to college, paying for a daughter's wedding, or reacting to an unexpected job loss or medical emergency.
Well, so far your posts have produced little in the way of condemnation for those who cleaned up in the years that were THE defining period of America's greatest accumulation of wealth for those in the upper percentile. Conversely those times brought debt and some of the worst misery for those who thought they could possibly afford a bite of the American dream. But for some this is an inconvenient truth. I'm not against those with the tenacity to make something of themselves, but I'm understanding of those who for whatever reason can't. Both kinds are generally wanting the same things for their families but both won't have the same opportunities to obtain them. Defending the scum on Wall Street isn't a sign that one truly understands the tremendous economic imbalance in our country, but, that defense gives rise to speculation as to which side of the tracks one is on..It's not important for you to agree or disagree with any of my assertions, our differences are simply our own take on things, you can go on interpreting our financial mess as the work of low brow scheming fools and attributing all that is good as being the work of our friends on Wall Street.
As for "hanging out with the wrong crowds" I'm going to assume that this statement provides us a good look into your views of America's working class, as they were and still are the class that has/had the most debt to income differential problems that you assume are these peoples most defining characteristics. Your holier than thou stance just gives more weight to the fact that many American's were doing fine in the old paradigm of "I've got mine" sorry about yours"economics. Maybe you're just missing the good o'l days of five hundred thousand dollar shacks being sold to those larcenous so and so's that you despise, maybe we'll be treated to a "recovery" of the days of no interest, no job, no nothing loans made by the poor downtrodden banks that didn't know better, or were co-opted to do so by the evil gubmint...Ohh the horror of it all..
On another note, since you have so much difficulty trying to sort out the various reasons for America's present financial debacle, and instead choose to assign a kind of singular blame on those in the lowest echelons of the equation, I'm quite sure that you will never be persuaded to look beyond them for any greater truths. Your diatribe on freedom is totally without substance here, at last resort you climb on the podium of "self reliance" "freedom" and "hard work" and shout as though you had some kind of ownership of those qualities, and assert that those who you deem unworthy are lacking in the same qualities.
I've been long accustomed to the indifference shown to those who are usually the last to understand the way in which things in America really work. Your abrupt dismissal of all the people who truly are victims, and your insistence on attempting to downplay the fact of their dismal situation as something akin to a type of larcenous, irresponsible, and just plain stupid behavior, speaks volumes on the subject of piousness. You are absolutely correct when you state that YOU should be considered neglectful should YOU end up in financial dire straits, but I thought I covered the difference between those who know the score on these matters and those who don't. I've done well in my life, but, I don't feel the need to use that as a club on those who haven't.
I responded with a few words to your post portraying workers as faultless sheep so easily influenced by wall street, advertising, and school indoctrination, but you certainly painted quite a stereotypical caricature of me from that, didn't you?
Nowhere did I defend Bankers, Wall St., Govt., Goldman Sachs, etc. Are you attributing other people's posts to my views? Or, do you just stereotype anyone, who believes the middle class mindset has some faults, as being completely in love with Wall St and from the other side of the tracks? Wall St. is there to make money - that is their purpose. Of course, they are not trustworthy. The govt., OTOH, is there to represent and protect the people - if they want to get in bed with bankers and gift Goldman Sacs billion dollar bonuses, I have a bigger problem with our govt. representation.
I happen to give most people more credit than having the minds of house plants, that's why they have some culpability. I find that believing in people's abilities is often a better way to live than the opposite.
Lover of working man or lover of Wall Street? One side of the tracks or the other (I have been on both sides)? It's an either/or proposition for you? No gray area?
Home equity is simply one form of investment and as such is just as subject to periodic management and reallocation as any other. There is also very little one can do to "delay gratification" in the case of sending kids to college, paying for a daughter's wedding, or reacting to an unexpected job loss or medical emergency.
Of course job loss / medical emergencies are not about delaying gratification. But how many people do you know who go into massive debt for an elaborate $40K wedding with a $10K dress they wear one time, or they go into massive student debt to obtain an economically useless degree at a pricey private college in order to work as a waiter? I know many, many people like this. People who do not financially plan and make poor decisions. These people made bad choices and often pay the price, and then think they have somehow been cheated out of things because they are in debt.
Ever wonder why the post office has $billion deficits year after year? They operate like a typical Government operation.
They do not operate like a typical government operation, since typical government operations are funded by taxes. The USPS is funded by postage.
The biggest reason for its deficits is the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006 which requires the USPS to pay $5.5 billion a year into an account that pre-funds retirement benefits 75 years into the future, within 10 years. A crippling requirement other government operations are not subject to. The USPS had no debt in 2005.
Furthermore, first class mail postage rates in the US are among the lowest in the world. You can send a letter from Miami to Alaska for 46 cents, that is quite cheap. I think they can afford to increase postage a little.
Amen. When many fell for the advertising, many more never did. What traits did the latter poses that the former lack?
I agree that it was ignorance but I believe most people are wrong on the sentiment behind it. Most of the borrowing went for housing, education and medical bills. You need to look at the very high gross savings rate. The problem was that investment was debt fueled. People were buying houses as a savings vehicle. Its not terribly surprising since most people don't even know what value is. This is why most people fail miserably in economic analysis as they try to apply micro economic marginal utility models to macro economic facility models. The value of diamonds is quite high as a marginal utility value as an effective debt instrument against the facility of the rest of the economy. I don't think it compares very well to the discovery of electricity which facilitates an economy. Cheap and abundant "worthless" fresh water as a whole is priceless. That was the problem with housing. Expensive housing is closer to diamonds as a model of value when in fact cheap and abundant housing is of far more facility while scarce and expensive housing is a great zero sum marginal value for those who have it.
We saved debt which is like 10 people on an island thinking they are wealthy because 5 other people owe them which is nothing but outsourcing real investment. If those 5 people who owe you try to pay you off with more debt instruments who is actually creating any value? Where is the industrial capital? What happens when all this value is a debt pyramid based up on person left on the island? That was the housing bubble. Someone who makes money will pay me lots of money for this house. Lots of what?
Too much debt and too much investment in debt instead of a direct investment into industrial capital.
I agree that it was ignorance but I believe most people are wrong on the sentiment behind it. Most of the borrowing went for housing, education and medical bills. You need to look at the very high gross savings rate. The problem was that investment was debt fueled. People were buying houses as a savings vehicle. Its not terribly surprising since most people don't even know what value is. This is why most people fail miserably in economic analysis as they try to apply micro economic marginal utility models to macro economic facility models. The value of diamonds is quite high as a marginal utility value as an effective debt instrument against the facility of the rest of the economy. I don't think it compares very well to the discovery of electricity which facilitates an economy. Cheap and abundant "worthless" fresh water as a whole is priceless. That was the problem with housing. Expensive housing is closer to diamonds as a model of value when in fact cheap and abundant housing is of far more facility while scarce and expensive housing is a great zero sum marginal value for those who have it.
We saved debt which is like 10 people on an island thinking they are wealthy because 5 other people owe them which is nothing but outsourcing real investment. If those 5 people who owe you try to pay you off with more debt instruments who is actually creating any value? Where is the industrial capital? What happens when all this value is a debt pyramid based up on person left on the island? That was the housing bubble. Someone who makes money will pay me lots of money for this house. Lots of what?
Too much debt and too much investment in debt instead of a direct investment into industrial capital.
Add in 2nd and 3rd mortgages are simply spending unrealized gains. Then, when housing crashed in 2007, the borrowers were whning and the lenders folding because nothing is dumber than spending unrealized gains.
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Add in 2nd and 3rd mortgages are simply spending unrealized gains. Then, when housing crashed in 2007, the borrowers were whning and the lenders folding because nothing is dumber than spending unrealized gains.
