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Damn right, two Tim Horton's larges with every meal. Black.
I actually don't have a problem with my neighborhood. I can't complain for the price, and if I was rich and wanted to live with other rich people, I'd be in SF. Detroit is not SF, but it does offer lower middle class dreamers like me the chance to forgo 30 Yeats of mortgage and begin that garage business immediately. That or I could start my own homeless shelter.. I don't know yet.
And I take everything back I said about my hood. I went to the Heidelburg project. 3 abandoned And burned churches. Really.. Churches. Then two blocks later, well maintened apartments, and a mile later, Ford field. I'm going to call these Detroit moments, like seeing the for lease on the Wayne County building. Moments that make you stop and think awhile because of the cognitive dissonance.
I have a problem with sprawl. Sprawl caused by flight, and the ignoring of those communities. Rosedale, Madison heights, and Warren? Thriving communities with the same brick 1920s-1940s housing stock. I think I know were all those people who left Detroit went!! I have a problem with people working to bring back Detroit, but just midtown and downtown. I have a problem with trying to compete with more popular cities by just gentrifying and securing isolated pockets of the city. It won't work, you can ride your bike into the hood, easy.
Detroit has a great thing, national attention and a bottomed out real estate market. Secure the hood, improve the schools (or market to the world you are), a
Jobs, jobs, jobs, pay people to start companies, jobs, and roll out the welcome mat. As soon as you hit critical mass, traffic will force people out of Warren back into the city.
Detroit has a great thing, national attention and a bottomed out real estate market. Secure the hood, improve the schools (or market to the world you are), a
Jobs, jobs, jobs, pay people to start companies, jobs, and roll out the welcome mat. As soon as you hit critical mass, traffic will force people out of Warren back into the city.
I like the way you think. Let's revisit this paragraph after about six months. Think about how that may or may not apply to the Arabs rehabbing Dearborn Hts and displacing a number of Section 8 folks and elderly black and white homeowners. Don't answer right now. Look into that situation for yourself. They may or may not expand into Detroit. The Japanese may or may not export a large number of families to homestead in Detroit. It's an interesting concept.
In the meantime, drink a Tim Horton's coffee for me. We don't have them in Des Moines. That and Meijer (big box store) are two things I miss.
Op, it's not worth risking your life to live in a neighborhood that even to your own accounts is post apocalyptic. There are plenty of cities that are affordable, safe and has a lot more to offer.
The economy here is so so at best. If a lot of locals are having problems finding jobs it makes it infinitely harder to do so as an outsider.
That critical mass you are talking about may be 20 , 30, 40 years away or it may never come. All I know is in the long run we are all dead. Don't waste your time in an area u have no ties to and that may never improve. Keep in mind that detroit's fall took 50 years. It would be foolish to think its possible rise will take any less than that.
Thanks for all the compliments. I'm flattered, 100 a day maybe a gross overstatement. It' about 18-22 to camp a night, coffee 10 bucks a day, 20 on food, ( local Coney's and Buddies were al right) 10 in gas to get around (could be less, but I'm visiting animal shelters for motivation. ) Mostly its just frustration that I'm sitting on my hands, and know the past pricing for every hot water heater in the area.
I'm really thinking of squating my place, but I'd imagine an armed dude in an abandoned building could get ugly. Not to mention, vagrency is rough to explain in a job interview.
My area every 6th house has burned or is abandoned. I'm actually kinda cool with that, 2 went on auction and i didn't win them. I can say one of my neighbors has his car parked in my driveway, without plates. Considering he's got options for parking his car, this does not bode well. Another neighbor helped start my car, nice guy. He did mention that my _hite _$$ is going to pay his property taxes. Which I assumed ment, he was happy someone affluent was coming to share the public burden.
The wall is more porous.. I sit in Troy now, and I the people are diverse. But the economic diversity is the still very prominent. I'm actually kinda surprised when I mention n were I live, people who know were it is actually laugh or are puzzled.
I think the best way to illustrate those invisible walls is go to the bank. Greektown out Gratiot to 8 mile, they have a double door metal detector on entry. With bullet proof glass on the interior. Pride lake, they have in store branches. And Securitas must be making a fortune downtown. In reality, I've never really stepped into really terrifying place. I got stuck in front of my driveway, and when a younger group of men walk down my block, things get tense. But if I avoid shooting hoops in the park, lock my doors, and not spend all night at the gentlemen's clubs. I feel pretty safe. At least in my area, the fire has burned out.
Your government and services are what is killing Detroit. I had a long talk about taxes with a pet shelter volunteer. After old racism, taxes, corruption, and services keep people in the exurbs. Detroit needs a friendlier, cheaper face.
I went to the police station to register my CCW and firearm. First they seriously threatened to confiscate my weapon, then the firearms unit was closed. 2 problems, i am doing the right thing, relax. 2 prompt and adequate service would change the perception that the public is dragging along a corrupt and ineffectual social service. Trust me, I saw it in Iraq, security means also keeping the sewer working and lights on. Otherwise, why respect the government?
Anyways... Another day another... Coney?
I did a thread on this a while back. I don't consider myself a teapartier by any stretch of the imagination, but the astronomically high property tax and city tax rates in Detroit are what is stifling its rebirth outside of downtown and Midtown. Somewhere around 69 mills is about twice what you pay in surrounding areas (Grosse Pointe is 48, Livonia is 39!) and half of Detroiters don't even pay their property taxes. I actually don't blame them. How do they expect a huge number of the "next generation" of Detroiters to buy condos in the city when a $200,000 condo has property taxes of almost $7000/year? That's ridiculous on a global scale. Maybe London has tax rates that high, but not many other places.
Shoot I can buy a little fixer upper in Berkley or Farmington with a tax rate of 38 mills, and actually get city services with those taxes and a lot lower crime.
By comparison, we moved to Grand Rapids almost 20 years and the highest property tax rates you'll find are in the 40 mill range. And that's in East Grand Rapids where you have basically zero crime, world class schools, streetside leaf pickup in the winter, and the city even plows your sidewalks for you. Not necessarily saying there's correlation, but we have the #3 job market in the country right now and the population in the area is exploding. I know people who WORK IN DETROIT who live here and make the 4 hour drive every day. And you can still buy houses here for $50K. Not the best areas, but most of the houses on your street will still be standing.
Ayn Rand wasn't right about a lot, but you certainly can't property tax your way to prosperity.
Thanks for all the compliments. I'm flattered, 100 a day maybe a gross overstatement. It' about 18-22 to camp a night, coffee 10 bucks a day, 20 on food, ( local Coney's and Buddies were al right) 10 in gas to get around (could be less, but I'm visiting animal shelters for motivation. ) Mostly its just frustration that I'm sitting on my hands, and know the past pricing for every hot water heater in the area.
I'm really thinking of squating my place, but I'd imagine an armed dude in an abandoned building could get ugly. Not to mention, vagrency is rough to explain in a job interview.
My area every 6th house has burned or is abandoned. I'm actually kinda cool with that, 2 went on auction and i didn't win them. I can say one of my neighbors has his car parked in my driveway, without plates. Considering he's got options for parking his car, this does not bode well. Another neighbor helped start my car, nice guy. He did mention that my _hite _$$ is going to pay his property taxes. Which I assumed ment, he was happy someone affluent was coming to share the public burden.
The wall is more porous.. I sit in Troy now, and I the people are diverse. But the economic diversity is the still very prominent. I'm actually kinda surprised when I mention n were I live, people who know were it is actually laugh or are puzzled.
I think the best way to illustrate those invisible walls is go to the bank. Greektown out Gratiot to 8 mile, they have a double door metal detector on entry. With bullet proof glass on the interior. Pride lake, they have in store branches. And Securitas must be making a fortune downtown. In reality, I've never really stepped into really terrifying place. I got stuck in front of my driveway, and when a younger group of men walk down my block, things get tense. But if I avoid shooting hoops in the park, lock my doors, and not spend all night at the gentlemen's clubs. I feel pretty safe. At least in my area, the fire has burned out.
Your government and services are what is killing Detroit. I had a long talk about taxes with a pet shelter volunteer. After old racism, taxes, corruption, and services keep people in the exurbs. Detroit needs a friendlier, cheaper face.
I went to the police station to register my CCW and firearm. First they seriously threatened to confiscate my weapon, then the firearms unit was closed. 2 problems, i am doing the right thing, relax. 2 prompt and adequate service would change the perception that the public is dragging along a corrupt and ineffectual social service. Trust me, I saw it in Iraq, security means also keeping the sewer working and lights on. Otherwise, why respect the government?
Anyways... Another day another... Coney?
What do you mean by "your government and services are what is killing Detroit"??
Are you from the US?
And Detroit is in bad shape for sure, as didn't they file Chapter 9 bankruptcy..
We all know why they are in such bad shape and barely providing the the most basic services like getting
an ambulance.
I get the bigger picture and what your doing..buy on the cheap and hope for the best. IMO it's going to take a long time before Detroit ever becomes what they once where..and hopefully sooner than later. Good
luck..
Ayn Rand wasn't right about a lot, but you certainly can't property tax your way to prosperity.
Detroit's taxes were lower when it's population was higher and more affluent. Therefore the city was built with the assumption that those revenue sources wouldn't decrease as dramatically as they did.
If Detroit cuts taxes (which doesn't necessarily guarantee growth by itself), that's still less revenue for city services and other government functions which may mean that it doesn't change the situation at all. Sure the taxes might be lower, but now there might only be limited services proportional to the amount of tax revenue.
It's much easier to cut taxes when a city is growing than it is to cut them when it's shrinking.
Everyone always suggests physically shrinking the city size, but that just off-loads the problem to someone else and I'm pretty sure if that were to happen, whatever suburban municipalities pick up that slack will sure have to raise their taxes to accommodate the area or face declining service quality. On the other hand, spreading the city (like in a county-consolidation), may lower taxes in the short term but still doesn't guarantee long-term growth.
I believe that if you get people who are able and willing to pay Detroit's current taxes, they'll live in the city longer than someone whose taxes will have any sort of change (both raised or lowered).
*In actual circumstances, most of Detroit's taxes were going towards pension obligations and debt and it's expected that post-bankruptcy Detroit will have more money to put into city services. However, it's not expected to stem population decline.
Detroit's taxes were lower when it's population was higher and more affluent. Therefore the city was built with the assumption that those revenue sources wouldn't decrease as dramatically as they did.
If Detroit cuts taxes (which doesn't necessarily guarantee growth by itself), that's still less revenue for city services and other government functions which may mean that it doesn't change the situation at all. Sure the taxes might be lower, but now there might only be limited services proportional to the amount of tax revenue.
It's much easier to cut taxes when a city is growing than it is to cut them when it's shrinking.
Everyone always suggests physically shrinking the city size, but that just off-loads the problem to someone else and I'm pretty sure if that were to happen, whatever suburban municipalities pick up that slack will sure have to raise their taxes to accommodate the area or face declining service quality. On the other hand, spreading the city (like in a county-consolidation), may lower taxes in the short term but still doesn't guarantee long-term growth.
I believe that if you get people who are able and willing to pay Detroit's current taxes, they'll live in the city longer than someone whose taxes will have any sort of change (both raised or lowered).
*In actual circumstances, most of Detroit's taxes were going towards pension obligations and debt and it's expected that post-bankruptcy Detroit will have more money to put into city services. However, it's not expected to stem population decline.
Detroit already provides a shrinking level of services, and forecast to shrink even more (while keeping tax rates the same). It's like any business that is failing: you can't expect people to continue to pay exorbitant prices for reduced value. There are just too many other alternatives out there.
Only half of Detroiters pay their property taxes now. That is actually a beautiful example of economic theory at work: raise your prices to a certain level and they will just simply stop buying, even if it is illegal.
Trust me, homebuyers are very price sensitive when it comes to property tax rates, particularly out-of-state buyers from the East Coast (which number in the millions who are fleeing the coast and fanning out into lower cost markets with good job prospects).
Perhaps Detroit could benefit from a property tax renaissance zone for the entire city. Provide a reduced property tax rate that goes with the homeowner, not the home. A 20 mill reduction for as long as you live in the city if you buy a home today. The main requirement is that you actually PAY your property taxes.
Most of the people pouring into the Detroit areas that are seeing rebirth are renters, who don't actually see the property tax bill. The landlord just buries it in the $2/square foot rent so that the price sensitivity for the tax rate is eliminated.
Anyway, sorry for hijacking your thread soldierhobo. Good luck.
Great stuff. OK so Detroit is between a rock and a hard place economically, and reasonably I assume if it reduces size Warren, Madison Heights, ect. Will let the newly unincorporated dwindle and die, because historically they really don't seem to care about Detroit, they are escaping it actually.
I'm not a fan of renegotiating pensions and legacy benefits to much, its a contract, but I kinda like the idea of a tax reduction or holiday, to attract new residents that will stabilize the tax base. Actually, nahhh... Keep taxes high, keep real estate at rock bottom and re-asses based on current market values. I think Meemur was right, at these prices, an economic minority who isn't aware of the historic problems or has no choice will fill the hole. Whether it' jaded coasters, Hmong, Iraqi's, someone, somewhere is yearning to breath free, and doesn't have a few generations of wealth to rely on.
Fix schools, fix crime, and leave real estate at rock bottom. I think tax base will resolve itself, if the ship can actually be righted. I just think the services on Detroit now should start being more efficient, friendly, and realize Detroit cannot compete with the big boys anymore.
I did a thread on this a while back. I don't consider myself a teapartier by any stretch of the imagination, but the astronomically high property tax and city tax rates in Detroit are what is stifling its rebirth outside of downtown and Midtown. Somewhere around 69 mills is about twice what you pay in surrounding areas (Grosse Pointe is 48, Livonia is 39!) and half of Detroiters don't even pay their property taxes. I actually don't blame them. How do they expect a huge number of the "next generation" of Detroiters to buy condos in the city when a $200,000 condo has property taxes of almost $7000/year? That's ridiculous on a global scale. Maybe London has tax rates that high, but not many other places.
Shoot I can buy a little fixer upper in Berkley or Farmington with a tax rate of 38 mills, and actually get city services with those taxes and a lot lower crime.
By comparison, we moved to Grand Rapids almost 20 years and the highest property tax rates you'll find are in the 40 mill range. And that's in East Grand Rapids where you have basically zero crime, world class schools, streetside leaf pickup in the winter, and the city even plows your sidewalks for you. Not necessarily saying there's correlation, but we have the #3 job market in the country right now and the population in the area is exploding. I know people who WORK IN DETROIT who live here and make the 4 hour drive every day. And you can still buy houses here for $50K. Not the best areas, but most of the houses on your street will still be standing.
Ayn Rand wasn't right about a lot, but you certainly can't property tax your way to prosperity.
Don't forget the city income tax of 1.4% for the PRIVILEGE of working in Detroit and a 2.4% tax if you live AND work in Detroit...... This city is becoming a joke.
They should PAY people money to live in Detroit. 2.4% might not seem like a lot but it really is. For a cat making 50k a year, 2.4% is roughly 1000-1200 dollars a year! Enough for a nice vacation vacation,half a year's worth of gas, or the disposable income to go out to eat 15-20 times a year!
Detroit really is stuck between a rock and a hard place. No money and no tax revenue. Unlike other cities where there was revenue sharing between the city and suburbs, Detroit didn't have that and probably will never have that.
Comparitevly I paid 1000 a month for rent (split between me and the misses, who is watching over the apt. Until I set up), ownership drops 12000 dollars back into my pocket. Assuming I can command a simar salary ( 30k, degree in Mathematics, veteran, hard working) 1000 + 2000 in property tax still puts me ahead in the game of life. I also figured that the job market for professionals would be less saturated, 60% college attainment in P-town, worse economy than Detroit by far. But its a popular place for Trustafarians. We'll see how that works out in a few months.
Last edited by soldierhobo; 07-27-2014 at 08:56 AM..
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