A new UD Arena? (Dayton, Green: lease, crime, homes)

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by hensleya1

But South Park would be rejuvenated pretty quickly.

What? South Park is one of the better historic districts in Dayton. They are a tight knit neighborhood and a very mixed neighborhood.

If you think an urban mall, or a lifestyle center would bring Dayton back, then I would say you are virtually clueless on Dayton's problems and how to solve them. How would a shopping center, in a relatively undesirable space draw people from desirable areas around Dayton? Are you thinking there is enough of a demographic in the area to support stores that target middle to upper income customers? Or does Dayton tend to attract dollar stores because they are frequented by middle to upper income customers?

Please elaborate. I am all ears.

[Dayton Sux]

My idea for what to put in the Fairgrounds would be more housing akin to what was done in those side streets btw Main and Brown, or the type of infill you see in Wright-Dunbar Village. Maybe some OTR-style infill apartments, too, along Main and Stewart.

Sort of like a small new urbanist 'new town in town' neighborhood. And retain the upper part (the north part) of the property as a park and overlook toward downtown, possibly with the old round barn retained somehow.

If you want a big massive building it should go where the UD Arena is now...on a big wide-open site surrounded by parking.

Have we not learned ANYTHING after 50 years of urban design disasters?

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by Dayton Sux

My idea for what to put in the Fairgrounds would be more housing akin to what was done in those side streets btw Main and Brown, or the type of infill you see in Wright-Dunbar Village. Maybe some OTR-style infill apartments, too, along Main and Stewart.

Sort of like a small new urbanist 'new town in town' neighborhood. And retain the upper part (the north part) of the property as a park and overlook toward downtown, possibly with the old round barn retained somehow.

I would think those interested in living in Dayton city limits would find this attractive, as well as people working at MVH. There really is an untapped commuter group at MVH who would likely love to live close to work, in a desirable, safe area around MVH. Problem is, there really is no area like this next to MVH.

[joe from dayton]

I don't see the fairgrounds being used for residential space at all.

[Dayton Sux]

^
It probably won't be.

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by joe from dayton

I don't see the fairgrounds being used for residential space at all.

I know. I really don't see it doing much more than sitting there getting uglier by the day.

[CarpathianPeasant]

Originally Posted by hensleya1

Hi CarpathianPeasant--

That land, right next to Miami Valley Hospital and UD, is prime real estate. The current building is an eyesore. I'm sure Montgomery County could sell it, buy some cheaper land outside the city limits, and rebuild a new Fairgrounds there for comparable cost to what you'd get from selling the real estate in the city.

Having a decent urban area - that is, one that's largely built up, stretching from Downtown in the north to UD in the south is an excellent way to begin turning the whole city around. Having a hopping area around Brown Street, jobs at MVH, and new townhomes on Rubicon St. could easily spread to the neighboring areas - South Park for instance, and then outwards from there.

Moving the UD Arena to the Fairgrounds puts it within walking distance of UD's campus, which could boost attendance still further (and possibly alleviate some traffic snarls; as the commuter parking lots from UD could be used to handle overflow parking).

Throw in a shuttle bus (or more like a van) that connects the UD area to downtown and you'd have more development in no time, have the city partner with UD to jointly fund it. Just have a 3 mile round trip circuit - start at the intersection of Stewart and Brown, go north on Brown, up Jefferson to downtown, turn around on Monument Ave., go back south on Main St to Stewart, and then back to Brown.

Have stops at the following locations:
1) Somewhere along Brown St., perhaps in the middle of the shops (I'm thinking in front of Arby's)
2) Brown St. at Wyoming St. (Miami Valley Hospital, walking distance to South Park)
3) Jefferson St. at 3rd St. (downtown, RTA hub, night clubs)
4) Jefferson St. at Monument Ave. (downtown, RiverScape, Dragons games)
5) Main St. at 3rd St. (downtown, courthouses, Sinclair, RTA hub)
6) Main St. at Apple St. (Miami Valley Hospital, and the new UD arena's location)
7) Stewart St. at Main/Rubicon St. (New townhomes, UD)

Cost would be minimal - a van that can carry 10-15 passengers plus a couple driver's. Call it $400,000 a year when you factor in driver's salaries, maintenance, fuel, etc. If the City can't cough that much up, they have a problem.

Darlin',

This does not address what I asked you, which you even quoted:

"Exactly what constitutes 'an urban environment'?"

A shuttle bus does not make something an "urban environment." Reliable and frequent local public transportation (as in RTA) might indeed be an element of an "urban environment" without the addenda of any shuttle buses.

And, by the way, a bunch of housing crammed together also doesn't make for an "urban environment."

[hensleya1]

Hi CarpathianPeasant--

All right, I'll try again (and simplify it) - it's an area where people can live, work, and play safely, and actually want to live there.

By building up a residential area on the site of the Fairgrounds, you could add a decent residential complement to what is a strong and growing job base - since Miami Valley Hospital isn't going anywhere, and neither is UD. Currently, a lot of UD faculty/staff live in Oakwood; a decent Fairgrounds neighborhood could be a competitive alternative.

As to the high-end town center, I think Dayton blew its chance ten years ago - considering back then, they had GM, Delphi, NCR, and the other big companies that actually paid decently. We can look in hindsight and say "low socioeconomics make it impossible", but they didn't know it back then. It's a fair argument to make that any Greene-type town center built in Dayton circa 2004 would have gone under by now, and it may be completely unworkable in 2013.

Which brings me back to the most feasible alternative to the Fairgrounds - a residential area for professionals that work at MVH/UD/GE.

[joe from dayton]

A few UD profs and staff members live in Oakwood -- the vast majority do not live there and most cannot afford to live there. If UD does buy the place I'm very confident that it will not be turned into a residential area. It is not part of the Valley's or university's mission to build open market housing.

[CarpathianPeasant]

Originally Posted by joe from dayton

It depends on the city. Most (if not all) cities have restrictions on farm animals and livestock.

Oh, city restrictions. Dog license. Leash law. (Doesn't have to be a farm bred dog.)

Insofar as Dayton goes, if I got the story straight, some years ago it was established at the unhappiness of the Sisters of Notre Dame that institutions could not keep a small herd of sheep (whether they kept the grass mowed or not) within the city limits.

I do not argue that there are (and should be) restrictions. And, I also don't think every city of measurable size banned horses once (automotive) gas rationing ceased at the end of World War II.

Meanwhile I do believe city grown tomatoes and roses can be entered in the county fair.