Millions of dead trees in the Colorado Mountains (Aspen, Telluride: camps, cost)

[Ticky909]

Originally Posted by delta07

This doesn't make sense. Lodgepole grow where they do because they are "in their element." These forests have been here much longer than the humans that have lived or intervened. You cannot remove the species without some detrimental consequence to the ecosystem. They are adapted well, and planting some other species where lodgepole naturally grow, will not work. First off, most other species can't survive where lodgepole can. There is a reason why the stands grow the way they do. Second, what do you think would be accomplished by doing this? Having a pretty forest. Why would you want to change this? I don't get it!

Yea, Lodgepoles are prety hardy, they are known to have a range from about baja California to the Yukon Territory, and from the west coast, about to the black hills. The problem isn't necessarily the lodgepoles themselves, in a wild forest, the mountain pine beetle isn't 'that' big of an issue, they come in and kill the older, past-vigorous stage trees that can't defend themselves, making room for some new saplings to come up. That's under non epidemic conditions and we're in an epidemic, where they will try to prey on anything with a trunk < ~6 inches.

The lodgepole in many places being affected by the epidemic are there, in general, because that are had been clear cut, or cleared quickly in some fashion. Thus, you'll find entire forests of aging (becoming vulnerable) lodgepole pines, that aren't spaced very well (crowded, weaker) and have had their natural fire cycles suppressed(No old, weak, vulnerable trees being cleared to make room for new ones). This makes it possible for an epidemic of such a magnitude we're experiencing now to take place. I'm not saying lodgepole is bad and they should be replaced with other trees, when a lodgepole pine forest is wild, it looks much different, and cycles much more smoothly. I'm suggesting that a little diversity gets mixed in. Biodiversity increases a forests tolerance for change, makes it more durable. Also, I'm suggesting that this is allowed to happen again, by producing another forest of crowded, aging, weak, lodgepoles to be another disaster in 80 or so years. That's what I'm saying. I don't care about how a forest works, I care about how it operates cyclically, and by allowing the same thing to happen again for the next generation due to mismanagement or shortsightedness would be irresponsible.

Also, these forests aren't very old, there might be some people alive today that might have had a hand in this situation becoming what it is. These forests are a product of the mismanagement that has preceded them.

To be honest the MPB epidemic is in some ways a perfect storm, there has been 'natural' phenomenon taking place as well. Theres been a trend of not-so-advantageous years that have weakened the trees, with lower precipitation reducing the amount of defensive resin the trees produce, higher temperatures, etc. In general, it doesn't get cold enough in Colorado to REALLY kill the things off, you need sustained temperatures of -25 F for a number of days to kill about 1/4 of the population, and in the study I was looking at in Fraser, there weren't too many strings of -25f.

In the end, I'm saying manage it correctly, manage it with an eye towards the future. Don't do anything unnatural, either by replacing lodgepole, or letting lodgepole to get out of hand, either.

Hoo yah?

[delta07]

Originally Posted by Ticky909

Yea, Lodgepoles are prety hardy, they are known to have a range from about baja California to the Yukon Territory, and from the west coast, about to the black hills. The problem isn't necessarily the lodgepoles themselves, in a wild forest, the mountain pine beetle isn't 'that' big of an issue, they come in and kill the older, past-vigorous stage trees that can't defend themselves, making room for some new saplings to come up. That's under non epidemic conditions and we're in an epidemic, where they will try to prey on anything with a trunk < ~6 inches.

The lodgepole in many places being affected by the epidemic are there, in general, because that are had been clear cut, or cleared quickly in some fashion. Thus, you'll find entire forests of aging (becoming vulnerable) lodgepole pines, that aren't spaced very well (crowded, weaker) and have had their natural fire cycles suppressed(No old, weak, vulnerable trees being cleared to make room for new ones). This makes it possible for an epidemic of such a magnitude we're experiencing now to take place. I'm not saying lodgepole is bad and they should be replaced with other trees, when a lodgepole pine forest is wild, it looks much different, and cycles much more smoothly. I'm suggesting that a little diversity gets mixed in. Biodiversity increases a forests tolerance for change, makes it more durable. Also, I'm suggesting that this is allowed to happen again, by producing another forest of crowded, aging, weak, lodgepoles to be another disaster in 80 or so years. That's what I'm saying. I don't care about how a forest works, I care about how it operates cyclically, and by allowing the same thing to happen again for the next generation due to mismanagement or shortsightedness would be irresponsible.

Also, these forests aren't very old, there might be some people alive today that might have had a hand in this situation becoming what it is. These forests are a product of the mismanagement that has preceded them.

To be honest the MPB epidemic is in some ways a perfect storm, there has been 'natural' phenomenon taking place as well. Theres been a trend of not-so-advantageous years that have weakened the trees, with lower precipitation reducing the amount of defensive resin the trees produce, higher temperatures, etc. In general, it doesn't get cold enough in Colorado to REALLY kill the things off, you need sustained temperatures of -25 F for a number of days to kill about 1/4 of the population, and in the study I was looking at in Fraser, there weren't too many strings of -25f.

In the end, I'm saying manage it correctly, manage it with an eye towards the future. Don't do anything unnatural, either by replacing lodgepole, or letting lodgepole to get out of hand, either.

Hoo yah?

That's makes much more sense! Sorry, I just didn't read into your post correctly. I'm a professionally trained forester, although not practicing currently. So, I understand perfectly what you mean by the lack of diversity in a lodgepole stand. Thanks for the clarification! Oh, and yes, the perfect storm is brewin'. We'll just have to wait and see how it plays out!

[treedonkey]

Originally Posted by delta07

I'm a professionally trained forester, although not practicing currently.

What, exactly, does a pro forester do?

[CosmicWizard]

I think a proforester is like a professor, but they teach trees instead of people!

[delta07]

Originally Posted by treedonkey

What, exactly, does a pro forester do?

As a professional forester, I worked for the US Forest Service designing, laying out, and overseeing timber harvests on Forest Service land. Other foresters deal with watersheds, recreation use, wildfires, and urban forests. Now I just take care of my family and enjoy looking at the trees!

Originally Posted by CosmicWizard

I think a proforester is like a professor, but they teach trees instead of people!

If only I could teach those dang trees not to grow where people want to built their trophy homes, eh!

[DOUBLE H]

A professional forester? I know, said the NFL trivia machine. The poster in disguise is Bill Forester, former pro Green Bay Packer linebacker from the late 50's to mid 60's! I WIN!!!............................................ sorry.

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by DOUBLE H

A professional forester? I know, said the NFL trivia machine. The poster in disguise is Bill Forester, former pro Green Bay Packer linebacker from the late 50's to mid 60's! I WIN!!!............................................ sorry.

Having a little football withdrawl tonight, are we? Hmmm pal?

[DOUBLE H]

I am!! But we're cranking it up soon! Got some new Colt stories fer ya as well! Stay tuned!

[JD59]

Reporting from Denver -- Until its trees started dying, the Colorado ski resort town of Breckenridge stayed out of the business of telling residents how to defend their homes against wildfire.

But with trees ravaged by a mountain pine beetle epidemic that has left large rust-tinged swaths of forest vulnerable to a catastrophic fire, town officials decided this year they had to act.

Colorado town's wildfire law called intrusive - Los Angeles Times

[Shuffler]

It's really simple.

Defensible Space = you get assistance from fire agencies when the big fire comes

No Defensible Space = fend for yourself, and good luck to ya!