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If you are confused how a couple of Korean shop owners when you walk in for ice cream at 7PM and see their kids studying at an empty table have *miraculously* developed a bunch of brilliant kids...go watch the movie about the Williams sisters (Venus and Serena) and instead of tennis, pretend it's math.
P.S. National Merit Finalist, zero prep, tiny school didn't know what AP was but parents without college educations took me to library all the time.
Oh wait, got another generation of NMF that passed with almost a perfect score. No prep classes even.
We make a lot of excuses that sports requires hard work and the academics is just luck and paying for test prep. Mmmmm I have some words that would get me banned for the people making that lame excuse.
I went to school in an era where the Iowa tests, PSAT, and SAT were given extensively and which, in my experience, proved to be highly correllated to intelligence as well as future success.
After reading the whole thread I have a suspicion that the anti-SATers harbor a fear that this is a truth that ought not be admitted.
If you are confused how a couple of Korean shop owners when you walk in for ice cream at 7PM and see their kids studying at an empty table have *miraculously* developed a bunch of brilliant kids...go watch the movie about the Williams sisters (Venus and Serena) and instead of tennis, pretend it's math.
P.S. National Merit Finalist, zero prep, tiny school didn't know what AP was but parents without college educations took me to library all the time.
Oh wait, got another generation of NMF that passed with almost a perfect score. No prep classes even.
We make a lot of excuses that sports requires hard work and the academics is just luck and paying for test prep. Mmmmm I have some words that would get me banned for the people making that lame excuse.
Agreed. We are a nation of cowards per K-12. The bottom 1/3 or so of our K-12 output is so dysfunctional they pose long term national security concerns.
We have legions of young men - at rates far higher than age peer young women - living with their parents long term. So many young men are dying from hard drugs their deaths are skewing-down overall longevity metrics. Most of this group range from engaged in ongoing criminal activity - others are utterly unemployable and still others are only marginally employable. And of course this group's educational attainment metrics are terrible.
________
We have friends who sat their girls down after school everyday at wall-facing desks in a hallway. Homework and studies began immediately after school.....exceptions being sports practices/games and school activities. "A's" were expected. Years on both have terminal degrees and great careers.
Other friends arrived from Nigeria with tattered clothes and a little cash. Years on two of their kids have masters degrees and two terminal degrees.
We paid our kids roughly an inflation adjusted $25 per class per A. Nothing for per B. Minus $25 per C. Although probably crass and certainly transactional we made it clear A's were the expectation. It worked.
I happen to know that of the 8 kids in my three anecdotes 4 were NMFs, 4 were NMSF commended or whatever it's called.
If you are confused how a couple of Korean shop owners when you walk in for ice cream at 7PM and see their kids studying at an empty table have *miraculously* developed a bunch of brilliant kids...go watch the movie about the Williams sisters (Venus and Serena) and instead of tennis, pretend it's math.
P.S. National Merit Finalist, zero prep, tiny school didn't know what AP was but parents without college educations took me to library all the time.
Oh wait, got another generation of NMF that passed with almost a perfect score. No prep classes even.
We make a lot of excuses that sports requires hard work and the academics is just luck and paying for test prep. Mmmmm I have some words that would get me banned for the people making that lame excuse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_
We have friends who sat their girls down after school everyday at wall-facing desks in a hallway. Homework and studies began immediately after school.....exceptions being sports practices/games and school activities. "A's" were expected. Years on both have terminal degrees and great careers.
Other friends arrived from Nigeria with tattered clothes and a little cash. Years on two of their kids have masters degrees and two terminal degrees.
We paid our kids roughly an inflation adjusted $25 per class per A. Nothing for per B. Minus $25 per C. Although probably crass and certainly transactional we made it clear A's were the expectation. It worked.
I happen to know that of the 8 kids in my three anecdotes 4 were NMFs, 4 were NMSF commended or whatever it's called.
Both of the above quotes illustrate why the idea that certain groups shouldn't be overrepresented in higher education is utterly absurd. Effort, cultural expectations for education and familial sacrifice for education are not equal across the board.
In particular, Asians being so overrepresented at the college level is not an injustice to be remedied. I've talked to literally tens of thousands of parents about test prep. With few exceptions, Asian parents are the ones calling about getting their sixth grader started (we discourage this) or asking questions to ensure our program is rigorous enough. It's simply a different level of cultural expectation, and a fair system is one in which that additional effort isn't penalized because other groups aren't working as hard.
Anyone who forms the belief that the system is biased based on crude demographic statistics and unequal enrollment numbers at the college level has no clue what they're talking about.
We have legions of young men - at rates far higher than age peer young women - living with their parents long term. So many young men are dying from hard drugs their deaths are skewing-down overall longevity metrics. Most of this group range from engaged in ongoing criminal activity - others are utterly unemployable and still others are only marginally employable. And of course this group's educational attainment metrics are terrible.
I wondered what happened at home to the legions of young men - divorced families, no fathers, parents not involved? It's sad because it's all so avoidable.
Money isn't the big factor in educational attainment, parental involvement is by far the biggest factor!
Both of the above quotes illustrate why the idea that certain groups shouldn't be overrepresented in higher education is utterly absurd. Effort, cultural expectations for education and familial sacrifice for education are not equal across the board.
In particular, Asians being so overrepresented at the college level is not an injustice to be remedied. I've talked to literally tens of thousands of parents about test prep. With few exceptions, Asian parents are the ones calling about getting their sixth grader started (we discourage this) or asking questions to ensure our program is rigorous enough. It's simply a different level of cultural expectation, and a fair system is one in which that additional effort isn't penalized because other groups aren't working as hard.
Anyone who forms the belief that the system is biased based on crude demographic statistics and unequal enrollment numbers at the college level has no clue what they're talking about.
Yeah, in the US if you're smart it's often described as lucky or a gift.
If it's athletics...well then it's noted how you must have put in a lot of hard work.
Not everybody, but yeah.
As I have gotten older I think back to my parents taking me and my sibling to the library, encouraging education etc. despite not going to college themselves and it makes me a bit mad that they just dismiss poor results from people as "unfairness" or how you can just magically buy test prep and voila...because that's a huge cop-out.
I wondered what happened at home to the legions of young men - divorced families, no fathers, parents not involved? It's sad because it's all so avoidable.
Money isn't the big factor in educational attainment, parental involvement is by far the biggest factor!
How is it avoidable? I think a lot of families would like to know your solution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy
Yeah, in the US if you're smart it's often described as lucky or a gift.
If it's athletics...well then it's noted how you must have put in a lot of hard work.
Not everybody, but yeah.
As I have gotten older I think back to my parents taking me and my sibling to the library, encouraging education etc. despite not going to college themselves and it makes me a bit mad that they just dismiss poor results from people as "unfairness" or how you can just magically buy test prep and voila...because that's a huge cop-out.
Intelligence and and athletic ability are similar. Most of it is what you're born with. You can work hard at both, but you're limited by what you were born with. The best you can do is maximize the ability you were born with. For example, I have three children. All three graduated from college. All three were encouraged by me to be involved in sports. That's where the similarity ends. My son is extremely bright, went to an Ivy League school, and became a physician. He was not very good in sports and resented that I pushed him to be better in sports.
My daughters were able to graduated from college but avoided math and science subjects. Math and science did not come easy to either of them. The one daughter was a natural athlete and excelled at sports. She set records in track, went to the state meet, started in soccer and basketball, and played basketball in college.
The other daughter played basketball in high school but did not start.
My point is that all three of my children had equal opportunities in both academics and sports. The difference was the abilities they were born with. My wife and I read to them when the were young, took them to the library, got them involved in every possible sport at an early age. All we could do was to help them maximize their abilities.
Intelligence and athletic ability are similar. Most of it is what you're born with. You can work hard at both, but you're limited by what you were born with. The best you can do is maximize the ability you were born with. For example, I have three children. All three graduated from college. All three were encouraged by me to be involved in sports. That's where the similarity ends. My son is extremely bright, went to an Ivy League school, and became a physician. He was not very good in sports and resented that I pushed him to be better in sports.
My daughters were able to graduate from college but avoided math and science subjects. Math and science did not come easy to either of them. The one daughter was a natural athlete and excelled at sports. She set records in track, went to the state meet, started in soccer and basketball, and played basketball in college.
The other daughter played basketball in high school but did not start.
My point is that all three of my children had equal opportunities in both academics and sports. The difference was the abilities they were born with. My wife and I read to them when they were young, took them to the library, got them involved in every possible sport at an early age. All we could do was to help them maximize their abilities.
We can't achieve equal outcomes even among siblings who are genetically similar and grew up in the same environment.
Yet, our educational system expects to achieve equal outcomes between classes, races and sexes across society as a whole.
We can't achieve equal outcomes even among siblings who are genetically similar and grew up in the same environment.
Yet, our educational system expects to achieve equal outcomes between classes, races and sexes across society as a whole.
Go figure.
And then declare "winner" that they are achieving that...by dropping grades, homework, eliminating final exams, ignoring discipline issues, etc.
The biggest game of "make believe" ever and now it's so obvious.
Over 1 million kids did not come back to public school when the pandemic lockdowns ended.
And those will be the kids that go on to get a real academic education.
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