College Degree not cutting it as way out of poverty for many (PhDs, Ivy)
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As far as I can tell, everyone agrees with this. College is NOT for everyone. There are other paths that are better fits for some kids. I don't know anyone who thinks a kid who hates academics should be forced to attend college. And as you pointed out, attending but not graduating gets kids in debt that is then very hard to payoff without the bump in earnings a degree provides.
Where I disagree is with the folks (and there are some) who think no one needs a college degree. That any money spent on a college education is a waste and that a HS degree is enough education. These folks will normally concede that anyone who plans on being a doctor, lawyer or CPA needs college, but it's a waste for all others.
The reasons I disagree are these: 1. Some kids like the academic challenge and value the opportunity to continue their educations 2. Many jobs now require a degree and if you don't have one you won't even get the chance to interview. It's been like this for a while and it's not going to change and 3. No matter how you spin the numbers (earnings, unemployment) college grads come out on top. Sure their are outliers (HS grads who do extremely well and college grads who do extremely poorly), but in general a college grad will out earn a HS grad and experience fewer and shorter periods of unemployment.
AGREED!
For some reason, this forum has almost become the "Not Everyone Should go to Colleges and Universities" forum. People make fun of degrees like "Art History" and "Women's Studies". My former physician had an undergrad in Art History for heaven's sake! People carry on about student debt, when the fact of the matter is that the average student loan debt is about the price of a new car, something many of the naysayers have no trouble justifying. (I think virtually everyone knows by now that student debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy, which is often the justification for opposing debt for education but not cars.) People talk about college grads working at Starbuck's et al, when the statistics show that college grads have higher income and lower unemployment, on average. I have a niece working at both Starbuck's and Costco, trying to put together an income, and she does NOT have a college degree. My non-college educated nephew has three part time jobs, none of which are exactly "career" positions, e.g. bartender, etc. He is in his 40s. People wax rhapsodic about "the trades", as if there's some documented huge shortage of people in the trades. It takes as long to become an electrician as it does to obtain a college degree. Most trades that are high-end like that do require some time investment after high school.
Posters go on about successful people who did/do not have college degrees, sometimes going all the way back to Abraham Lincoln. Good grief, Lincoln was born in 1809, 207 years ago! The world has changed a lot since 1809, or even since 1860, when Lincoln became president. In Lincoln's day, "reading law" as he did, was a common way to get a law degree. Then there's Henry Ford, b. 1863, during the American Civil War. Who would argue that the world hasn't changed since then? Some bring up Harry Truman, b. 1884, the last US president to not have a college degree. Again, in Truman's day, a lot of people hadn't even graduated from high school. Truman had an edge b/c he had a HS diploma and some post HS education. Then there are Bill Gates (1955), Steve Jobs (also 1955) and Mark Zuckerberg (1984). All three did attend, though not graduate from college. Gates has said he wished he'd finished. Jobs, may he RIP, probably would have done well to graduate. He might not have thought he knew more than his doctors. The jury is still out on Zuckerberg. These guys are all business people, not scientists, engineers, etc, and they are outliers! Many of these kids who "hate academics" are not in a position to be the next Zuckerberg.
Could you imagine the firestorm among parents if counselors started encouraging kids to forget about college and go into the trades instead? A college education never held anyone back, even if one does decide later to pursue a trade, e.g. electrician, welder, hair stylist. Students should always be encouraged to stretch their limits, not contract them. Good grief, they'll be working for 50 years or more!
I do think these threads should be limited. We get it.
Sorry for the long rant. This has been driving me nuts since I joined CD in 2007.
Put it like this, what person would continue doing their trade job if they hit the jack pot with the lottery. Very few I'd wager.
Yes most people don't view them as dream jobs. And you know it.
Many people who win the lottery quit their jobs, regardless of their professions, so not sure what you are alluding to. Work is for people who are not wealthy enough to not have to work, generally speaking. Try to tone down the ego though. Your opinions are valid for you, but you are just one person out 6.5+ billion, so take it easy there.
As far as I can tell, everyone agrees with this. College is NOT for everyone. There are other paths that are better fits for some kids. I don't know anyone who thinks a kid who hates academics should be forced to attend college. And as you pointed out, attending but not graduating gets kids in debt that is then very hard to payoff without the bump in earnings a degree provides.
Where I disagree is with the folks (and there are some) who think no one needs a college degree. That any money spent on a college education is a waste and that a HS degree is enough education. These folks will normally concede that anyone who plans on being a doctor, lawyer or CPA needs college, but it's a waste for all others.
The reasons I disagree are these: 1. Some kids like the academic challenge and value the opportunity to continue their educations 2. Many jobs now require a degree and if you don't have one you won't even get the chance to interview. It's been like this for a while and it's not going to change and 3. No matter how you spin the numbers (earnings, unemployment) college grads come out on top. Sure their are outliers (HS grads who do extremely well and college grads who do extremely poorly), but in general a college grad will out earn a HS grad and experience fewer and shorter periods of unemployment.
I think those people are just literally speaking for themselves. I don't think they literally mean that no one should go to college, particularly if they are able to pay for it.
But they are saying why drown yourself in debt if it isn't going to pay off financially.
Lastly if literally everyone went to college and successfully graduated you'd wipe out the value of a college education. This is already true in some fields, which is why there is so much antipathy towards college.
What education proponents don't like to admit is education favors people who are already well to do. If your family can't contribute substantially chances are you can't go. There isn't that much scholarship funding available, and it's hard for most 18 year old kids to get jobs that pay well enough and have few enough hours to get their undergraduate degrees. There are exceptions, but they aren't that common.
For some reason, this forum has almost become the "Not Everyone Should go to Colleges and Universities" forum. People make fun of degrees like "Art History" and "Women's Studies". My former physician had an undergrad in Art History for heaven's sake! People carry on about student debt, when the fact of the matter is that the average student loan debt is about the price of a new car, something many of the naysayers have no trouble justifying. (I think virtually everyone knows by now that student debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy, which is often the justification for opposing debt for education but not cars.) People talk about college grads working at Starbuck's et al, when the statistics show that college grads have higher income and lower unemployment, on average. I have a niece working at both Starbuck's and Costco, trying to put together an income, and she does NOT have a college degree. My non-college educated nephew has three part time jobs, none of which are exactly "career" positions, e.g. bartender, etc. He is in his 40s. People wax rhapsodic about "the trades", as if there's some documented huge shortage of people in the trades. It takes as long to become an electrician as it does to obtain a college degree. Most trades that are high-end like that do require some time investment after high school.
Posters go on about successful people who did/do not have college degrees, sometimes going all the way back to Abraham Lincoln. Good grief, Lincoln was born in 1809, 207 years ago! The world has changed a lot since 1809, or even since 1860, when Lincoln became president. In Lincoln's day, "reading law" as he did, was a common way to get a law degree. Then there's Henry Ford, b. 1863, during the American Civil War. Who would argue that the world hasn't changed since then? Some bring up Harry Truman, b. 1884, the last US president to not have a college degree. Again, in Truman's day, a lot of people hadn't even graduated from high school. Truman had an edge b/c he had a HS diploma and some post HS education. Then there are Bill Gates (1955), Steve Jobs (also 1955) and Mark Zuckerberg (1984). All three did attend, though not graduate from college. Gates has said he wished he'd finished. Jobs, may he RIP, probably would have done well to graduate. He might not have thought he knew more than his doctors. The jury is still out on Zuckerberg. These guys are all business people, not scientists, engineers, etc, and they are outliers! Many of these kids who "hate academics" are not in a position to be the next Zuckerberg.
Could you imagine the firestorm among parents if counselors started encouraging kids to forget about college and go into the trades instead? A college education never held anyone back, even if one does decide later to pursue a trade, e.g. electrician, welder, hair stylist. Students should always be encouraged to stretch their limits, not contract them. Good grief, they'll be working for 50 years or more!
I do think these threads should be limited. We get it.
Sorry for the long rant. This has been driving me nuts since I joined CD in 2007.
I know a lot of people who took on substantial levels of debt and felt that a college education held them back considerably.
First of all in many fields, a bachelor's degree is not enough. One needs additional education. My undergraduate major was history. In order to find worthwhile employment I had to take additional classes to get licensed as an ESL teacher, and then to renew the certification I had to go to grad school. This was expensive and I paid for it via family inheritance.
In business, whether it's film, tech sector, finance, the real opportunities are based upon your social network. It takes a lot more than an education to do well financially. Not everyone capable of getting a degree is good at the networking/business aspect of it. And some people were born into situations giving them a head start on that.
I think the anti college crowd knows very well that if you already come from money you are well ahead of the game in the social networking crowd.
So honestly, why go out and get a bachelor's degree just to earn 5 or 10 dollars more per hour than a high school drop out, when it may take considerable resources that you may not have and that may put you seriously in debt. Not everyone likes to study either ,and there is nothing wrong with that.
I ultimately went to grad school because A: I liked to study, and B: it was a good thing to spend my inheritance on. If I hadn't have gone to grad school I might have just blown the money.
I know a lot of people who took on substantial levels of debt and felt that a college education held them back considerably.
First of all in many fields, a bachelor's degree is not enough. One needs additional education. My undergraduate major was history. In order to find worthwhile employment I had to take additional classes to get licensed as an ESL teacher, and then to renew the certification I had to go to grad school. This was expensive and I paid for it via family inheritance.
In business, whether it's film, tech sector, finance, the real opportunities are based upon your social network. It takes a lot more than an education to do well financially. Not everyone capable of getting a degree is good at the networking/business aspect of it. And some people were born into situations giving them a head start on that.
I think the anti college crowd knows very well that if you already come from money you are well ahead of the game in the social networking crowd.
So honestly, why go out and get a bachelor's degree just to earn 5 or 10 dollars more per hour than a high school drop out, when it may take considerable resources that you may not have and that may put you seriously in debt. Not everyone likes to study either ,and there is nothing wrong with that.
I ultimately went to grad school because A: I liked to study, and B: it was a good thing to spend my inheritance on. If I hadn't have gone to grad school I might have just blown the money.
How?
An undergrad degree is the foundation of a graduate degree. You can't get the latter w/o the former. It makes no sense to say a college degree isn't worth it because you need a master's as well. My brother has a history degree, and he had a career in human resources. He is older. Don't know if you could do that now.
But education is part of it! And in some fields, this "not what you know but who you know" doesn't really mean as much. I disagree with you putting the tech sector in there. My husband and many of my friends/acquaintances have done well in the tech sector w/o being "plugged in" so to speak, at least not to begin with.
I think the anti-college crowd is looking for excuses for why they haven't done well. They might start with their education. My nephew I mentioned above has no education beyond HS and he quit one job b/c there was "no opportunity for advancement". I did remark to DH (it's his brother's son) that he has no education beyond high school, why would he think he could advance?
That is just totally nuts. You start making connections in college. Yes, if you don't want to study, college probably isn't for you.
Katarina is right. The options with a HS diploma only are limited. Yes, you can make it, but typically you have to work jobs that suck. At least a college degree makes it possible to try and compete for jobs that suck less. The graduate can always just delete the degree off of his resume if he/she wants or needs to apply for jobs that don't require it. It improves your odds, period.
If college was not so outrageously expensive I think there would be a lot less teeth-knashing.
The whole "going off to college" will have to end unless there is improvement in the cost. If I were trying to go to my alma mater today my family could not afford it. It's never been cheap to subsidize a life away from home for 4 years, but with tuition rising like it has been, it's becoming impossible.
Katarina is right. The options with a HS diploma only are limited. Yes, you can make it, but typically you have to work jobs that suck. At least a college degree makes it possible to try and compete for jobs that suck less. The graduate can always just delete the degree off of his resume if he/she wants or needs to apply for jobs that don't require it. It improves your odds, period.
If college was not so outrageously expensive I think there would be a lot less teeth-knashing.
The whole "going off to college" will have to end unless there is improvement in the cost. If I were trying to go to my alma mater today my family could not afford it. It's never been cheap to subsidize a life away from home for 4 years, but with tuition rising like it has been, it's becoming impossible.
The price is a big reason why a lot of negativity comes up about "is college worth it today?"
Not everyone can receive a full ride to a university, an athletic scholarship, and not every family is well off enough to afford to pay for college out of pocket.
A decent university cost about $10k a year and a decent community college cost about $5k a year. Excluding room and board and other living exspenses. Many students receive partial scholarships that cover half or majority of the costs but still have to borrow loans to cover the difference.
Countries like Russia and Germany offer free college to every citizen but those countries are hyper competitive. They have to study 10 hours a day and do 5 internships to even have a decent shot at getting a decent paying job.
USA is trending to be a hyper competitive nation as well. American kids are going to have to study 10 hours a day to make straight As so they can ace the SAT college entrance exam, be active in several extra curricular activities so they can get in the top schools in order to get the handful of good paying jobs that are out there. Like what's happening in hyper competitive countries like Japan, Russia, and South Korea today. You either win or lose. There won't be anyone falling in the middle pretty soon.
The rest of the American kids are going to come up short and get stuck in low paying jobs for the majority of the time of their lives.
The price is a big reason why a lot of negativity comes up about "is college worth it today?"
Not everyone can receive a full ride to a university, an athletic scholarship, and not every family is well off enough to afford to pay for college out of pocket.
A decent university cost about $10k a year and a decent community college cost about $5k a year. Excluding room and board and other living exspenses. Many students receive partial scholarships that cover half or majority of the costs but still have to borrow loans to cover the difference.
Countries like Russia and Germany offer free college to every citizen but those countries are hyper competitive. They have to study 10 hours a day and do 5 internships to even have a decent shot at getting a decent paying job.
USA is trending to be a hyper competitive nation as well. American kids are going to have to study 10 hours a day to make straight As so they can ace the SAT college entrance exam, be active in several extra curricular activities so they can get in the top schools in order to get the handful of good paying jobs that are out there. Like what's happening in hyper competitive countries like Japan, Russia, and South Korea today. You either win or lose. There won't be anyone falling in the middle pretty soon.
The rest of the American kids are going to come up short and get stuck in low paying jobs for the majority of the time of their lives.
Unfortunately, that's just what education costs. A no-frills education simply adds up to about $12K a year.
Finland is probably the world's gold standard for education, and that's what it costs them: 10K a year for primary, pushing $13K for upper secondary.NCEE » Finland: System and School Organization
As with so many things in the U.S. though, we seem to pay more and get less.
An undergrad degree is the foundation of a graduate degree. You can't get the latter w/o the former. It makes no sense to say a college degree isn't worth it because you need a master's as well. My brother has a history degree, and he had a career in human resources. He is older. Don't know if you could do that now.
But education is part of it! And in some fields, this "not what you know but who you know" doesn't really mean as much. I disagree with you putting the tech sector in there. My husband and many of my friends/acquaintances have done well in the tech sector w/o being "plugged in" so to speak, at least not to begin with.
I think the anti-college crowd is looking for excuses for why they haven't done well. They might start with their education. My nephew I mentioned above has no education beyond HS and he quit one job b/c there was "no opportunity for advancement". I did remark to DH (it's his brother's son) that he has no education beyond high school, why would he think he could advance?
That is just totally nuts. You start making connections in college. Yes, if you don't want to study, college probably isn't for you.
Most people with bachelor degrees do not get into graduate programs. It is hyper competitive and very costly.
The best tech jobs or the best opportunities in tech do indeed require great connections.
Most people with bachelor degrees do not get into graduate programs. It is hyper competitive and very costly.
The best tech jobs or the best opportunities in tech do indeed require great connections.
Do you have some stats on the rate of grad school acceptance? The only ones that I know to be especially competitive are medical school and physical therapy school.
I don't think you know much about the tech field. I've been an observer these last 36 years of my marriage, and I would say that's untrue. Denver is a very techy town, and most people come here un-connected. In addition, I've never seen anything like that on the Denver forum, where people are constantly asking about job hunting.
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