Cleveland-Akron MSA merger (Projection) (Canton, Lorain: sale, 2013, live in)

[goofy328]

Originally Posted by ferraris

What are the real world impacts of this? Is it better to have one giant statistical area? Or are multiple smaller ones better? Or does what's better depend on if you are Cleveland or Akron?

There are none. We're just geeking out

[ClevelandBrown]

Originally Posted by goofy328

There are none. We're just geeking out

Yeah, there are not hard benefits of being a combined metro, but there may be some perception advantages for both Cleveland and Akron, which still would be separate urban areas in a combined metro.

For example, seems like common perception is that metro St. Louis (population 2.8 million) is either a tier above "Cleveland" or at the top of the same tier. In reality, a Cleveland-Akron MSA would be almost identical in population, and I'm guessing most people aren't aware that even a combined Cleveland-Akron MSA would still be in a land area that is about 66 percent smaller than metro St. Louis.

Overall, the Cleveland MSA is the second smallest in population of the 16 metros between 2 and 3 million and the smallest in land area. If combined, Cleveland-Akron, for now, would jump up to the fourth largest in population and would still be the second smallest in land area (slightly larger than Baltimore in land area and slightly lower in population). In terms of GDP, Cleveland-Akron would currently be third (surpassing St. Louis and being behind Denver and Baltimore).

"Akron" would have the benefit of, even if its an arbitrary statistic, of being able to sell it officially being in a metro of 2.7 million (instead of 700,000). That could help its case in business who are looking to relocate but are only considering metro areas of 1-2 million or above.

Even if there isn't any benefits, there really is no drawbacks. Maybe Akron loses a little bit of its individuality, but its name would still be in the MSA (ala Fort Worth in the Dallas-Fort Worth MSA). Plus, a lot of that individuality has long been lost as a good portion of Akron's historical population moved north and a chunk of Cleveland's historical population moved south into northern Summit County.

Really, where is the line that separates the two? I would guess Route 303 (Richfield, Hudson) but that's a very blurry line of exurbia.

[usaf_1832]

Originally Posted by ClevelandBrown

Really, where is the line that separates the two? I would guess Route 303 (Richfield, Hudson) but that's a very blurry line of exurbia.

What it might be is the Cuyahoga Valley National Park. Suburbia wraps around it to the east connecting Cleveland and Akron. You'll see the green wedged in there between Cuyahoga Falls and Brecksville:

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/maps/Overview/OTM2007ALG.jpg


Safe to say, if the national park didn't exist, Cleveland-Akron probably would have been defined as together as one a long time ago.

[ClevelandBrown]

Originally Posted by usaf_1832

What it might be is the Cuyahoga Valley National Park. Suburbia wraps around it to the east connecting Cleveland and Akron. You'll see the green wedged in there between Cuyahoga Falls and Brecksville:

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/maps/Overview/OTM2007ALG.jpg


Safe to say, if the national park didn't exist, Cleveland-Akron probably would have been defined as together as one a long time ago.

That map really visualizes it. But thankfully we have that pesky 51 square mile national park right in the middle of two urban areas. Probably the most progressive thing this region has done, even if it is the reason it's not one metro.

One thing NE Ohio did get right was creating a world class parks system (especially when adding the Cleveland and Summit metro park systems to the Cuyahoga Valley, which are all linked together).

[usaf_1832]

Originally Posted by usaf_1832

What it might be is the Cuyahoga Valley National Park. Suburbia wraps around it to the east connecting Cleveland and Akron. You'll see the green wedged in there between Cuyahoga Falls and Brecksville:

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/maps/Overview/OTM2007ALG.jpg


Safe to say, if the national park didn't exist, Cleveland-Akron probably would have been defined as together as one a long time ago.

Originally Posted by ClevelandBrown

That map really visualizes it. But thankfully we have that pesky 51 square mile national park right in the middle of two urban areas. Probably the most progressive thing this region has done, even if it is the reason it's not one metro.

One thing NE Ohio did get right was creating a world class parks system (especially when adding the Cleveland and Summit metro park systems to the Cuyahoga Valley, which are all linked together).

From the map, the Cuyahoga Valley National Park almost looks like NEO's Central Park.

And agreed. I know my young family absolutely takes advantage of the MetroParks, nature centers, trails, beaches, and local national park stuff.

[216facts]

Originally Posted by usaf_1832

From the map, the Cuyahoga Valley National Park almost looks like NEO's Central Park.

And agreed. I know my young family absolutely takes advantage of the MetroParks, nature centers, trails, beaches, and local national park stuff.

I like to compare DFW with CLE. Back in 1970, both metros were around 3M population. DFW was growing and CLE was flatlining. DFW was adding jobs, particularly in high growth areas like semiconductors. CLE was bleeding jobs in steel, auto, and machine tool industries. But DFW was also building a massive airport between Dallas and Ft. Worth. Cleveland built the Coliseum between Akron and Cleveland and that shot across the bow fired up a group of people to protect that land area from further development. By 1974 politicians (most notably Rep Seiberling) were able to get a bill signed to declare 33,000 acres into a national recreation area that later became the national park. Yay.

Some would quickly trade 1000s of acres of preserved land for an airport and all that job growth. Not me. I'll take the flat line population growth over the out of control sprawl that is happening elsewhere. Today DFW is nearing 8M population and CLE is still around 3M. I'll take it.

[ClevelandBrown]

Originally Posted by usaf_1832

From the map, the Cuyahoga Valley National Park almost looks like NEO's Central Park.

And agreed. I know my young family absolutely takes advantage of the MetroParks, nature centers, trails, beaches, and local national park stuff.

I know eyes will roll, though I know what you mean. I'll take it further, and eyes will really roll more, that Central Park wishes it was what the Cuyahoga Valley/Cleveland MetroParks/Summit MetroParks were).

Really, it isn't even close. And yes, a lot of that is due to Central Park being minuscule in land mass. But I guess that it what it is.

Even beyond that, where else in this country can you go from a ski resort to a beach in less than 20 miles? I'm guessing not to many, and maybe zero.

[bjimmy24]

Central Park and CVNP are qualitatively different things though. Most of the good greenery in the Cleveland area is outside the city.

[ferraris]

Perhaps it's the desire to downplay the "burning river legacy", but I'm surprised that the history of CVNP isn't used more as a selling point. It's amazing that part of it used to be the basketball arena, parking lots, and a literal dump. It's a shining example of restoring nature; not just preserving it.

It's often over looked as a national park, being newer and only 32,000 acres. It occupies a weird middle ground between state parks (typically hundreds of acres) and typical national parks (sometimes millions of acres)

[216facts]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

Central Park and CVNP are qualitatively different things though. Most of the good greenery in the Cleveland area is outside the city.

Agree, Central Park and CVNP are really two different concepts and both deserve pause to see their impact. More so Central Park though. Its hard to measure Central Park's impact on NYC but it is huge, the whole concept of setting aside over 800 acres in the center of a burgeoning business district is rarely done in the history of the world. Central Park's impact goes well beyond NYC though, demonstrating to the world how a maginot line is drawn between capitalism and conservation, not everything is for sale no matter the price.

CVNP also represents this ideal but much less dramatic. Nonetheless, CVNP is a source of immense pride for me. Using eminent domain to stop the sprawl was a proud moment in NEO history.