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In Suburban Smackdown!, I compare the suburbs. Comparing cities is boring and many large cities have been compared before so, why don't we spice things up here and compare the suburbs and satellite cities!
Parma, Ohio (suburb of Cleveland) vs Westland, MI (suburb of Detroit)
Which suburb is better in these categories:
Amenities
Architecture
Cost of living
Crime
Culture
Diversity
Downtown (if it exists)
Food
Friendliness
Future outlook of the suburb
Good place to live/visit
Growth
Nightlife
Outdoor activity
Political views
Population density
Public transportation, otherwise access to the main city
Quality of life
Schools
Skyline (if it exists)
Shopping
Things to do
Weather
This wasn't a thread I expected to see on here. I'm not sure if I ever have been to Westland, but for the most part, both the Cleveland and Detroit post-war boom, blue collar suburbs (40s-70s) are very similar overall. Parma (and Parma Heights, Brook Park, Middleburg Heights) reminds me a lot of the Macomb suburbs like Warren or Eastpointe. If Westland is similar to them, then it and Parma are more alike than different.
I won't go line by line, but I actually think the future is probably brighter than most would think for both Parma (and vicinity) and the Macomb burbs like Warren/Eastpointe in that while nothing fancy, they are still mostly intact and relatively safe. Where the future looks bright is in terms of being still very affordable in areas that are seeing longstanding families (now empty nesters) either passing away or retiring, which is opening up properties that are in the price range for families looking to buy a modest home. You're already seeing that in the comparable Detroit burbs and same thing will, IMO, happen in areas like Parma.
Just hitting on some of your criteria, for Parma, it's:
Amenities - nothing special but proximity is good being less than 10 miles to downtown
Cost of living - Very good especially in this inflated market
Crime - Some but no areas that I would feel would be dangerous
Culture - Very slavic (though diversifying with blacks, Puerto Ricans and Indians moving in)
Downtown - None, but downtown Cleveland is within 10-15 minutes; though a couple of commercial corridors (such as Ukrainian Village along State Road)
Outdoor activities - Big Creek branch of the Cleveland Metro Parks' system goes through there, though I don't think the Big Creek portion is that great; but the Metro Parks (and Cuyahoga Valley National Park) as a whole is IMO one of the best connected urban park networks in the country
Food - If eastern European is your thing, some great authentic slavic (Polish/Ukrainian) restaurants and grocers. Seeing some Latin/Puerto Rican spots open up there, and some Asian grocers/restaurants as well.
Political views - Former blue-collar union Dem stronghold that has shifted toward Trumpism (though about 50-50 in the 2020 election).
Density - somewhat dense in spots (10,000K range) down to suburban in the southern parts (3-4K range)
Public transportation - Not on the RTA Red rail line, but bus service is solid for suburban standards. I'm most familiar with the 51, which is one of the busiest bus routes and it goes through Parma, though all the major arteries have bus service.
Schools - Decent; not great, not horrible
Skyline - None, unless you count a group of 8-10 story apartments over by Valley Forge HS (though that's Parma Heights) and a couple of standalone apartment buildings and Parma Community Hospital
Shopping - Former Parmatown Mall is there and has been redeveloped back to more of an outdoor shopping area (which it was originally before being enclosed); nothing fancy (Macy's/Dillards is now Wal-Mart/Target)
And for people who think the Clevelanders are sensitive, there is:
For the most part, people in Cleveland can make jokes about themselves. Granted, I'm not from Parma, but yes this is the perception Parma has carried, but IMO the reality of the city is better than the stereotypes. Maybe 20 years ago (this parody is now close to being that old), it may have been closer than what it is now, but I personally think the Parma of today (partially because of the growing diversity ... schools are now anywhere between 25 to 40 percent non-white) is better than the 99 percent, blue-collar ethnic white past.
Back in the day, there was a skit done by a local Cleveland tv personality who went by the name Ghoulardi. The skit was called Parma Place, and he had some fun with Parma by referencing it as a land of white socks, polka music, pink flamingos and lawn globes. Parma seems like a typical mid-century inner-ring suburb. It's nothing fancy, but there are a lot of affordable cape cod houses, decent enough schools, and some good Eastern European food. Plus, it's an easy drive into downtown Cleveland. I've always found it to be quiet and unassuming when passing through.
Back in the day, there was a skit done by a local Cleveland tv personality who went by the name Ghoulardi. The skit was called Parma Place, and he had some fun with Parma by referencing it as a land of white socks, polka music, pink flamingos and lawn globes. Parma seems like a typical mid-century inner-ring suburb. It's nothing fancy, but there are a lot of affordable cape cod houses, decent enough schools, and some good Eastern European food. Plus, it's an easy drive into downtown Cleveland. I've always found it to be quiet and unassuming when passing through.
I remember the Ghoul ( Ghoulardi’s replacement ) here would reference Parma as well, but I didn’t know what that meant as I was a young kid.
This wasn't a thread I expected to see on here. I'm not sure if I ever have been to Westland, but for the most part, both the Cleveland and Detroit post-war boom, blue collar suburbs (40s-70s) are very similar overall. Parma (and Parma Heights, Brook Park, Middleburg Heights) reminds me a lot of the Macomb suburbs like Warren or Eastpointe. If Westland is similar to them, then it and Parma are more alike than different.
I won't go line by line, but I actually think the future is probably brighter than most would think for both Parma (and vicinity) and the Macomb burbs like Warren/Eastpointe in that while nothing fancy, they are still mostly intact and relatively safe. Where the future looks bright is in terms of being still very affordable in areas that are seeing longstanding families (now empty nesters) either passing away or retiring, which is opening up properties that are in the price range for families looking to buy a modest home. You're already seeing that in the comparable Detroit burbs and same thing will, IMO, happen in areas like Parma.
Just hitting on some of your criteria, for Parma, it's:
Amenities - nothing special but proximity is good being less than 10 miles to downtown
Cost of living - Very good especially in this inflated market
Crime - Some but no areas that I would feel would be dangerous
Culture - Very slavic (though diversifying with blacks, Puerto Ricans and Indians moving in)
Downtown - None, but downtown Cleveland is within 10-15 minutes; though a couple of commercial corridors (such as Ukrainian Village along State Road)
Outdoor activities - Big Creek branch of the Cleveland Metro Parks' system goes through there, though I don't think the Big Creek portion is that great; but the Metro Parks (and Cuyahoga Valley National Park) as a whole is IMO one of the best connected urban park networks in the country
Food - If eastern European is your thing, some great authentic slavic (Polish/Ukrainian) restaurants and grocers. Seeing some Latin/Puerto Rican spots open up there, and some Asian grocers/restaurants as well.
Political views - Former blue-collar union Dem stronghold that has shifted toward Trumpism (though about 50-50 in the 2020 election).
Density - somewhat dense in spots (10,000K range) down to suburban in the southern parts (3-4K range)
Public transportation - Not on the RTA Red rail line, but bus service is solid for suburban standards. I'm most familiar with the 51, which is one of the busiest bus routes and it goes through Parma, though all the major arteries have bus service.
Schools - Decent; not great, not horrible
Skyline - None, unless you count a group of 8-10 story apartments over by Valley Forge HS (though that's Parma Heights) and a couple of standalone apartment buildings and Parma Community Hospital
Shopping - Former Parmatown Mall is there and has been redeveloped back to more of an outdoor shopping area (which it was originally before being enclosed); nothing fancy (Macy's/Dillards is now Wal-Mart/Target)
And for people who think the Clevelanders are sensitive, there is:
For the most part, people in Cleveland can make jokes about themselves. Granted, I'm not from Parma, but yes this is the perception Parma has carried, but IMO the reality of the city is better than the stereotypes. Maybe 20 years ago (this parody is now close to being that old), it may have been closer than what it is now, but I personally think the Parma of today (partially because of the growing diversity ... schools are now anywhere between 25 to 40 percent non-white) is better than the 99 percent, blue-collar ethnic white past.
South Warren/Eastpointe is more like Garfield Heights/Maple Heights than it is Parma.
Westland's actually a pretty good comparison for Parma.
Parma has much stronger European ethnic ties while Westland is more "rednecky" on the whole and has a more established black presence.
South Warren/Eastpointe is more like Garfield Heights/Maple Heights than it is Parma.
Westland's actually a pretty good comparison for Parma.
Parma has much stronger European ethnic ties while Westland is more "rednecky" on the whole and has a more established black presence.
Yeah, I'd agree that Warren/Eastpointe are more now like Garfield Heights (especially south of 480), Maple and Bedford/Bedford Heights.
It's really tough to draw an exact apples to apples comparison, but overall, I think that the two cities' inner burbs are pretty similar. I guess Cleveland doesn't have a Romulus (innerish burb that has longstanding black population, that still has some rural dirt roads in places). I guess maybe Bellaire-Puritas could be somewhat comparable (but won't find dirt roads anywhere in Cuyahoga). But, Bellaire-Puritas is probably more similar to down river areas like River Rouge or Ecorse in demographics and build, anyway.
Romulus is really the area that Cleveland has no comp to. ... Maybe Twinsburg Heights (in Summit County so Akron MSA) would be the closest, but that whole Twinsburg/Twinsburg Heights/Twinsburg Twp. area is now becoming upper middle class suburban subdivison builds.
Well, that and Middle Eastern areas, but nobody has a comp to Detroit there. Cleveland is up there in the 2-5 range in terms of Middle East percentage, but the most Middle Eastern areas here are in that 5-10 percent range. There is nothing comparable in the US to Detroit in that regard, lol.
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