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Cleveland also has a poverty and crime people. Idk Cleveland as well as Chicago, but I'm assuming that there are areas similar to the South Side of Chicago, though not as bad. Those areas are probably suffering a population loss due to people escaping the violence and poverty.
One of Cleveland's historically more notorious neighborhoods is Hough, the scene of the most violent race riot in Cleveland's history.
By 2010, the population was under 11,500. Note, however, the household income distribution in 2010. As the Greater University Circle area has begun to spill over into Hough, the number of high-income households have begun to increase in Hough due to new residential construction. The Hough population likely has reached a nadir.
Case Western Reserve University, the 37th-ranked university in the U.S. by U.S. News & World Report, also is spilling out of University Circle into the adjacent Hough neighborhood.
Hough seems destined to become part of what is now known as the Greater University Circle area. The employment and world-class cultural amenities afforded University Circle residents has spurred a high-density housing boom there.
So the relatively cheap and vacant areas of Hough pose great opportunities for developers.
There are few places of such concentrated cultural vitality in the U.S. as University Circle.
Additionally, University Circle is connected by rail and the 24/7 Healthline bus rapid (see post 15) with downtown's commercial, dining/entertainment, and sports venues.
The Red Line heavy rail rapid has two stations servicing University Circle and additionally connects UC with Ohio City's Market District and Cleveland Hopkins airport.
Honest question for those that bash Charlotte for being bland and sterile. What makes a city like Cleveland so "unique"?
(Disclaimer, I like Cleveland, not bashing it here, just using it as a reference point)
But isn't it just another rust belt city with a bunch of historic (aka old) brick buildings downtown?
Read through post 41 carefully, and you'll see why Cleveland isn't bland.
If you think Cleveland is a bunch of "historic brick buildings downtown," you've likely never well explored Cleveland's downtown.
The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum now has complemented the Terminal Tower as Cleveland's iconic building and is one of the most famous works of I. M. Pei, echoing his famous pyramid design of the Louvre.
If I were standing in a suburb in Detroit, or Cincinnati, or Toledo, or Cleveland...would I know where I was?
Cleveland has many distinctive suburbs that would be instantly recognized by anybody familiar with them. How many suburbs have architectural walking tours, or have books written about them?
See post 22 here for examples of Cleveland's great New England-like public squares, a unique historical legacy of its founding as the Connecticut Western Reserve.
And, no offense here, but if Cleveland is so great; why is the city and metro still losing people?
There is an ebb and flow in all things. Few regions have been more eviscerated by America's poor competitive policy responses to industrial globalization in the last half century. Yet Cleveland once was perhaps the wealthiest community in the world on a mean per capita basis, and its great "legacy bones" and public-minded spirit today offer a quality of life at a bargain cost found in few places in the U.S.
I'm extremely familiar with both areas. I have a friend in the Cleveland area and have visited often. I live in the Charlotte area. "Greater" is fairly general and open-ended. But if you're talking about metro: Charlotte's is about 2.5 mil., Cleveland about 2.6 mil. and shrinking, not the 3+ mil. listed.
- Location - Both have good locations, but I like Charlotte's better. Not far from areas to visit from DC to FL. Close to the warm Atlantic and the mountains.
- Climate - Charlotte for sure. Sunny much of the time. Great 4-season climate. Someone of this thread said Charlotte's summers were "brutal". It gets hot, but "brutal" is a bit dramatic, lol. You can do much more outdoors for longer periods throughout the year in Charlotte than in Cleveland.
- Topography - Charlotte. Lots of trees/flowering plants/greenery, hills to the west, lakes/rivers. Cleveland has Lake Erie, which is nice.
- Diversity - Cleveland. More ethnic areas. Really nice.
- Culinary scene - Charlotte. There are more options here than many realize.
- Cultural Institutions (museums, botanical gardens, memorials, art galleries, zoos, so on) - Slight edge to Cleveland, but just barely. Other than a zoo, Charlotte has all of the above and they're really nice.
- City parks - Just from my experience, I'd say Charlotte. Plus I have to throw in the U.S. National Whitewater Center. It's a 700-acre, very unique outdoors recreation center in Charlotte. Heavily wooded and gorgeous. The Olympic Kayak trails are always there. A man-made whitewater rapids course, massive ziplines, biking, hiking, river kayaking/canoeing, restaurants, etc.
- Nightlife - I'm not a partyer, so no opinion here.
- Theme parks/Amusement parks - Charlotte (Carowinds). Someone mentioned Cleveland, stating that Cedar Point is an hour away. Though Sandusky isn't far from Cleveland, it's not in the metro area being an hour away. If that be the case, then we need to add 2 major zoos to Charlotte (NC Zoo and Riverbanks Zoo).
- Educational institutions (both K-12 and higher education - colleges and universities) - Cleveland.
- Job market and economy - Charlotte. For a Rust Belt area, Cleveland is doing fairly well. But when your area is actually loosing population, its economy can only do so well. Charlotte's has been consistently one of the nation's strongest economies for the last 25 years.
- Cost of living - Tie.
- Crime and safety - Tie.
- Architecture - Cleveland.
- City neighborhoods - Close, but Cleveland.
- Area suburbs - Close, but Charlotte.
- Public transport (inner city rail and commuter rail) - Charlotte (light rail)
- Airports - Charlotte. Really good airport with lots of connections.
- Infrastructure (roads, sidewalks, so on) - Cleveland.
- Downtown vibrancy - Tie.
- Structural density - No opinion. Some sections of both metros are dense, some aren't.
I have a special place in my heart for Cleveland. Great area and would recommend it to someone as long as they have a job already lined up. But, IMO, the Charlotte area is clearly better from a livability standpoint. That's why I live here and have stayed here. If you look at multiple publications and reports that rank metros over the last 20-25 years and notice the metros that are constantly on those lists, Charlotte is one of them. So, my vote in this case, is CHARLOTTE.
- Theme parks/Amusement parks - Charlotte (Carowinds). Someone mentioned Cleveland, stating that Cedar Point is an hour away. Though Sandusky isn't far from Cleveland, it's not in the metro area being an hour away. If that be the case, then we need to add 2 major zoos to Charlotte (NC Zoo and Riverbanks Zoo).
You could even add in Emerald Pointe which in relationship to the distance from Cleveland to Cedar Point would be a 10 minute difference.
I'm extremely familiar with both areas. I have a friend in the Cleveland area and have visited often. I live in the Charlotte area. "Greater" is fairly general and open-ended. But if you're talking about metro: Charlotte's is about 2.5 mil., Cleveland about 2.6 mil. and shrinking, not the 3+ mil. listed.
- Location - Both have good locations, but I like Charlotte's better. Not far from areas to visit from DC to FL. Close to the warm Atlantic and the mountains.
- Climate - Charlotte for sure. Sunny much of the time. Great 4-season climate. Someone of this thread said Charlotte's summers were "brutal". It gets hot, but "brutal" is a bit dramatic, lol. You can do much more outdoors for longer periods throughout the year in Charlotte than in Cleveland.
- Topography - Charlotte. Lots of trees/flowering plants/greenery, hills to the west, lakes/rivers. Cleveland has Lake Erie, which is nice.
- Diversity - Cleveland. More ethnic areas. Really nice.
- Culinary scene - Charlotte. There are more options here than many realize.
- Cultural Institutions (museums, botanical gardens, memorials, art galleries, zoos, so on) - Slight edge to Cleveland, but just barely. Other than a zoo, Charlotte has all of the above and they're really nice.
- City parks - Just from my experience, I'd say Charlotte. Plus I have to throw in the U.S. National Whitewater Center. It's a 700-acre, very unique outdoors recreation center in Charlotte. Heavily wooded and gorgeous. The Olympic Kayak trails are always there. A man-made whitewater rapids course, massive ziplines, biking, hiking, river kayaking/canoeing, restaurants, etc.
- Nightlife - I'm not a partyer, so no opinion here.
- Theme parks/Amusement parks - Charlotte (Carowinds). Someone mentioned Cleveland, stating that Cedar Point is an hour away. Though Sandusky isn't far from Cleveland, it's not in the metro area being an hour away. If that be the case, then we need to add 2 major zoos to Charlotte (NC Zoo and Riverbanks Zoo).
- Educational institutions (both K-12 and higher education - colleges and universities) - Cleveland.
- Job market and economy - Charlotte. For a Rust Belt area, Cleveland is doing fairly well. But when your area is actually loosing population, its economy can only do so well. Charlotte's has been consistently one of the nation's strongest economies for the last 25 years.
- Cost of living - Tie.
- Crime and safety - Tie.
- Architecture - Cleveland.
- City neighborhoods - Close, but Cleveland.
- Area suburbs - Close, but Charlotte.
- Public transport (inner city rail and commuter rail) - Charlotte (light rail)
- Airports - Charlotte. Really good airport with lots of connections.
- Infrastructure (roads, sidewalks, so on) - Cleveland.
- Downtown vibrancy - Tie.
- Structural density - No opinion. Some sections of both metros are dense, some aren't.
I have a special place in my heart for Cleveland. Great area and would recommend it to someone as long as they have a job already lined up. But, IMO, the Charlotte area is clearly better from a livability standpoint. That's why I live here and have stayed here. If you look at multiple publications and reports that rank metros over the last 20-25 years and notice the metros that are constantly on those lists, Charlotte is one of them. So, my vote in this case, is CHARLOTTE.
Cleveland CSA is 3.5M which is I think what the OP was referencing. Cedar Point is in the CSA which is why I think(and agree with) most people have been giving the theme parks to Cleveland.
I'm extremely familiar with both areas. I have a friend in the Cleveland area and have visited often. I live in the Charlotte area. "Greater" is fairly general and open-ended. But if you're talking about metro: Charlotte's is about 2.5 mil., Cleveland about 2.6 mil. and shrinking, not the 3+ mil. listed.
The "primary statistical area" is very important. E.g., Cleveland is the de facto cultural and sports center of its large CSA.
So, not surprisingly, Cleveland's cultural and pro sports amenities dwarf those in Charlotte.
Quote:
Originally Posted by march2
- Location - Both have good locations, but I like Charlotte's better. Not far from areas to visit from DC to FL. Close to the warm Atlantic and the mountains.
You belittle Cedar Point because it's one hour from downtown Cleveland (much closer to western suburbs), then aggrandize Charlotte because of its relative proximity to the Atlantic Ocean, and, even DC???
Actually, Cleveland is slightly closer to DC than Charlotte in travel time, according to Google maps -- slightly over six hours in both cases.
In proximity to major cities, Cleveland blows away Charlotte. It's a slightly over five hours from Chicago, slightly over seven hours from New York City, and less than five hours from Toronto, for those who want to visit a foreign country. Detroit still has major attractions (including one of the nation's best art museums and The Henry Ford) and is less than three hours from Cleveland. Pittsburgh and Columbus are just over two hours from Cleveland. Cincinnati is less than four hours from Cleveland. Niagara Falls and Letchworth State Park are less than four hours from Cleveland and Michigan's Gold Coast is less than five hours from Cleveland.
Ohio Amish Country, the largest Amish community in the world, surrounds Cleveland to the east and south. See Holmes County here.
Lake Erie's water temperature gets above 75 degrees in August. There is no salt, no sharks, no jellyfish. For toddlers, there are several gently sloping sand beaches with often mild wave action. Having spent days on both ocean and Lake Erie beaches, there are advantages to both. Here's the strange rub, however. Some of my great memories in life are ice fishing on Lake Erie, and walking a mile offshore on a frozen Lake Erie.
Not to mention that the Great Lakes, containing 20 percent of the world's fresh surface, are an incomparable fresh water source in an increasingly thirsty world.
Oh, yeah, Charlotte is almost four hours to the Atlantic Ocean. There is a Lake Erie beach less than 10 minutes from downtown Cleveland. And Cleveland is about eight hours from excellent New Jersey and Delaware ocean beach areas.
Being a coastal city on a major water body, with a robust boating culture, is a major plus of Cleveland over Charlotte.
Quote:
Originally Posted by march2
- Climate - Charlotte for sure. Sunny much of the time. Great 4-season climate. Someone of this thread said Charlotte's summers were "brutal". It gets hot, but "brutal" is a bit dramatic, lol. You can do much more outdoors for longer periods throughout the year in Charlotte than in Cleveland.
This is a joke. I do things year-round outdoors in Cleveland, and the varied experiences dwarf those available in Charlotte.
You've apparently never experienced the joy of sledding, cross country skiing, tubing, or even downhill skiing, snowboarding, ice skating outdoors, or riding toboggans in Greater Cleveland.
I never in my life experienced more oppressive heat and humidity (and pervasive rattlers) than on a vacation spent in August in the North Carolina mountains.
Many persons enjoy year-round warmth. Yet large numbers of Americans obviously prefer life in the north, given the typically superior cultural amenities, but also many enjoy the vigorous outdoor life offered in the Great Lakes and other northern regions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by march2
- Topography - Charlotte. Lots of trees/flowering plants/greenery, hills to the west, lakes/rivers. Cleveland has Lake Erie, which is nice.
This is debatable, and not just because of Lake Erie. Cleveland is not flat, as part of it is in the
Appalachian foothills. There are nice waterfalls and deep river and creek gorges. Falls colors rival those of New England, the rolling rural areas south of Cleveland are extremely bucolic, especially in areas with large Amish populations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by march2
- Culinary scene - Charlotte. There are more options here than many realize.
Really? How many James Beard best chefs are active in Charlotte? Cleveland has two -- Michael Symon of ABC's "The Chew" and cable food network fame, and Jonathan Sawyer. The city is famed for its "mod ethnic" and old ethnic food culture.
<<So your restaurants and culinary background are in Cleveland. How is Cleveland as a food city? It's actually very strong, I would say, for a mid-market city. If you take New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and San Francisco out of the equation I think Cleveland's probably the strongest food city in the country. "Farm-to-table" is kind of the new hip term but we've had that in Cleveland for 20 years; we've always had a strong connection with farmers.>>
Surrounded by one of the nation's most fecund agricultural regions (Ohio Amish Country and the former Great Black Swamp to the west), Cleveland has developed a strong locavore restaurant tradition.
Lake Erie perch and walleye are popular local delicacies not readily found outside the Great Lakes region. Good Italian restaurants (not pizza parlors) are pervasive.
And famous foodie author Michael Ruhlman calls Cleveland home:
And Cleveland has the West Side Market and Ohio City Market District. See links in post 41.
Quote:
Originally Posted by march2
- Cultural Institutions (museums, botanical gardens, memorials, art galleries, zoos, so on) - Slight edge to Cleveland, but just barely. Other than a zoo, Charlotte has all of the above and they're really nice.
Cleveland has arguably the best orchestra in the U.S., the most beautiful concert hall, and the country's best summer classical music venue.
It has one of the nation's best theater districts. See the links to Playhouse Square in post 41.
It is the home of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum.
Cleveland has one of the best zoos in the U.S., and is within a couple hours of two others in the top rankings -- Toledo and Columbus. These are easy day trips, as is the very good zoo in Pittsburgh.
- City parks - Just from my experience, I'd say Charlotte. Plus I have to throw in the U.S. National Whitewater Center. It's a 700-acre, very unique outdoors recreation center in Charlotte. Heavily wooded and gorgeous. The Olympic Kayak trails are always there. A man-made whitewater rapids course, massive ziplines, biking, hiking, river kayaking/canoeing, restaurants, etc.
Very doubtful. See post 30. Perhaps if you're considering only parks within Cleveland and Charlotte proper, Charlotte has an edge, but otherwise, everything in this thread suggests that Cleveland has a substantial edge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by march2
- Theme parks/Amusement parks - Charlotte (Carowinds). Someone mentioned Cleveland, stating that Cedar Point is an hour away. Though Sandusky isn't far from Cleveland, it's not in the metro area being an hour away. If that be the case, then we need to add 2 major zoos to Charlotte (NC Zoo and Riverbanks Zoo).
As noted, you wanted to include the Atlantic Ocean four hours away as a Charlotte advantage. Cedar Point for years has been the top-rated amusement park in the U.S. by Amusement Today.
Cedar Point, the roller coast capital of the world, sits on a beautiful Lake Erie peninsula, with a large marina, ferry service to the Lake Erie islands, and a large beach. It is the flagship park of Cedar Fair, which also owns Carowinds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by march2
- Job market and economy - Charlotte. For a Rust Belt area, Cleveland is doing fairly well. But when your area is actually loosing population, its economy can only do so well. Charlotte's has been consistently one of the nation's strongest economies for the last 25 years.
And yet the per capita income is 10 percent higher in Greater Cleveland. See post 17.
Quote:
Originally Posted by march2
- Area suburbs - Close, but Charlotte.
Highly unlikely, but I don't know Charlotte suburbs. How many Charlotte suburbs have robust mass transit service, let alone rail service such as Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights?
What suburb in Charlotte remotely compares to Shaker Heights, or, for sheer wealth, Hunting Valley?
What Charlotte suburb has a lake culture like Rocky River with a major yachting club?
Lakewood, adjacent to Cleveland, has very good mass transit connections to Cleveland, is home of Cleveland's Gold Coast, and has one of the very highest population densities in the Midwest. It is a highly acclaimed city. What Charlotte suburb is comparable?
Solon, OH, has been ranked as one of the best places to live in the U.S. by Money Magazine. Twinsburg was ranked 22. Harrisburg is the highest Charlotte suburb on the list at 41. Stallings is ranked 46.
Really? Cleveland has a downtown casino, one of the nation's best theater districts, three pro sports venues, and several entertainment/dining districts. Cleveland's downtown residential population is mushrooming, having already reached 14,000.
With its new convention center and its medical mart, Cleveland has a burgeoning convention business, especially having just hosted the Republican National Convention.
My preference for Cleveland is its world-class cultural amenities, great natural areas including Lake Erie, and more robust pro sports than Charlotte. I enjoy Cleveland's ethnic and diverse vibrancy and relatively close proximity to great attractions. As noted, median per capita income also is 10 percent higher in Cleveland.
Admittedly, if I didn't enjoy a winter season, Cleveland wouldn't be as attractive to me.
I never in my life experienced more oppressive heat and humidity (and pervasive rattlers) than on a vacation spent in August in the North Carolina mountains.
I'm guessing you're never been to the Gulf Coast or even parts of the East Coast during the summer.
You belittle Cedar Point because it's one hour from downtown Cleveland (much closer to western suburbs), then aggrandize Charlotte because of its relative proximity to the Atlantic Ocean, and, even DC???
Know the response wasn't directed my way but I don't think the point was to be little Cedar Point more so than to say that Charlotte's theme parks are in Charlotte.
I never in my life experienced more oppressive heat and humidity (and pervasive rattlers) than on a vacation spent in August in the North Carolina mountains.
Really isn't that hot but maybe you just weren't used to it especially since it is cooler in the mountains.
As noted, you wanted to include the Atlantic Ocean four hours away as a Charlotte advantage. Cedar Point for years has been the top-rated amusement park in the U.S. by Amusement Today.
Again I know this was intended for me but it's slow at work and I have some time, don't think that was to say a advantage in a theme park stance but location as Florida was also mentioned.
And yet the per capita income is 10 percent higher in Greater Cleveland. See post 17.
also maybe different sites say different things but it looks like Charlotte's per capita income is higher
Quote:
Cleveland, Ohio,sales tax rate is 8.00%. Income tax is 5.76%. The income per capita is $16,812, which includes all adults and children. The median household income is $26,556.
Quote:
Charlotte, North Carolina,sales tax rate is 7.25%. Income tax is 5.80%. The income per capita is $31,653, which includes all adults and children. The median household income is $52,916.
What Charlotte suburb has a lake culture like Rocky River with a major yachting club?
While Charlotte has nothing like Lake Erie, The Charlotte suburbs of Huntersville, Davidson, Cornelius, Mooresville, Statesville, Lake Norman(town), are all on Lake Norman( Lake Norman is sometimes referred to as the "inland sea" of North Carolina; it offers 520 miles (840 km) of shoreline and a surface area of more than 50 square miles (130 km2))
(This vid is corny and is a promotional piece but you'll get the point)
I'm guessing you're never been to the Gulf Coast or even parts of the East Coast during the summer.
I have been and had a great time, although very crowded with slow traffic.
My point, not directly made, is that if nearby mountains are listed as a regional asset, and if you want to downgrade Cleveland for winter weather, understand many of us similarly find high heat and humidity very undesirable and wouldn't rate the mountain experience during the hot summer months in North Carolina very highly.
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