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This is begging the question. To one who doesn't see a creator in the picture, it's also a non-sequitur.
Humans happen to be the most advanced species on this planet (and currently known to us) by several important measures, but that doesn't mean we're either the apex species, or specially privileged. Until just yesterday in terms of geological time, even up to about 40,000 years ago, we weren't even the only intelligent hominid walking the earth. Likely, we out-aggressed the competing species. Whether that makes us "better" is questionable, of course. But evolution isn't "concerned" with moral questions, it is only concerned with who survives in greater numbers long enough to bear and raise its young.
The point is what does God have to say about us and creation as a whole? Did He make us rulers of His creation? What you speak of is what scientists conclude based on their observation. If the observation is valid and true, it goes completely against everything that is written concerning Yahweh's order and ways. If the observation is not true, it is the greatest deception of God's character.
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Originally Posted by mordant
So? What is your point? Yes natural selection would still continue until such time as humans are advanced enough to alter the environment and/or their biology to suit themselves without unforeseen side effects. I am doubtful that will ever happen. And even then it would probably not be so much that we have stopped evolution, as taken control of it, for good or ill.
So that is my point, what is all of this saying of God our Creator?
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Originally Posted by mordant
The heat death of the universe is WAY too far in the future to be relevant to meaning and purpose for us today. It's like a 15 year old hiding in a closet because they are going to die some 75 years in the future. Maybe even sooner! What's the point! Well ... the point is to live in the moment, day by day, and leave the world a better place than you found it. Why would anyone ever get married when there's roughly a 50% chance any given marriage will end in divorce? Because such arrangements have so much potential that it's considered worth the effort and risk. You don't argue against marriage because of that ... you shouldn't argue against reality because the universe may not be eternal, or because the universe doesn't give a fig about you personally, and you are not in some privileged relation to it.
I think it takes a great deal of self importance to insist that all time must be ordered in a way that you find pleasing. We are finite, mortal beings with a very limited scope. We have much bigger fish to fry than the heat death of the universe. We have our own mortality to deal with.
Of course I'm looking at the past and the future as presented by our observations. It paints a different picture of God's character from what is derived in Scripture. This isn't about self importance. We aren't finite in God, but are finite outside of Him. Yet if He ordered this place as we see it, then the Bible is completely wrong. If the Bible is right, then this just proves why observable science is deceptive.
We have scripture after scripture that tells us 'dont be deceived, don't be deceived'! Jesus told us when His disciples asked Him what would be the sign of His coming in Matthew 24:4.........
Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you.".........
Deception has always been the enemies' number one weapon from the beginning to the very end. That's the name of the game for the devil, but I consider many Christians to be too laxed in how these deceptions come to us. They are subtle. And what could be more subtle than coming from an honest pursuit of truth about who we are and where we come from? Observable science is derived completely from sight, and even the pursuit of knowledge lines right up with how man fell to begin with according to Scripture. We need wisdom with our observation, and the beginning of wisdom is the fear of Yahweh.
We believe God created the universe and Earth for a purpose. If all activity in the universe ultimately ceases, then God pretty much wasted His time. He created, and at the end of everything, we return to a void and formless creation. All that work, for what?
I'm not sure you're fully accounting for god's omnipotence and timelessness. Nothing such a being could do would be for naught or represent a sunk cost. From a mortal human perspective, it seems ridiculous, but such a god would always play the long game.
In any case the heat death of the universe is a hypothesis and not a particularly testable one. There's lots of wiggle room for a more complete scenario where the universe cycles endlessly between a Big Bang and a heat death, and is in that sense eternal. Your god could therefore accomplish his will within the constraints of that cycle. Also you see him dwelling in a realm that is separate from creation anyway.
When you are thinking about the universe, you need to learn to think bigger.
Science isn't deceptive. Scientific conclusions simply show the best answers we have with the information, tools, and techniques we have to work with.
But if those "best answers" are incorrect, science is deceptive. If those "best answers" are correct, a literal interpretation lf Genesis is incorrect.
But if those "best answers" are incorrect, science is deceptive. If those "best answers" are correct, a literal interpretation lf Genesis is incorrect.
And I would go further in that not only Genesis would be incorrect if observable science is true, but the entirety of the Bible would be incorrect about its description of who God is. For instance I mentioned in another thread concerning death itself being an enemy of God. 1 Corinthians 15:26 states.......
The last enemy to be destroyed is death........
There's also scripture stating how God is not the God of the dead, but God of the living. Jesus Himself said speaking to the Sadducees in Mark 12:27........
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living..........
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Originally Posted by mordant
I'm not sure you're fully accounting for god's omnipotence and timelessness. Nothing such a being could do would be for naught or represent a sunk cost. From a mortal human perspective, it seems ridiculous, but such a god would always play the long game.
In any case the heat death of the universe is a hypothesis and not a particularly testable one. There's lots of wiggle room for a more complete scenario where the universe cycles endlessly between a Big Bang and a heat death, and is in that sense eternal. Your god could therefore accomplish his will within the constraints of that cycle. Also you see him dwelling in a realm that is separate from creation anyway.
When you are thinking about the universe, you need to learn to think bigger.
Of course this is much bigger than me and my imaginations of who God is and what His plans are. This is about all the prophets in Scripture from Moses, to Jesus Himself. Are they right about who God is and His ways? And Jesus being God in the flesh, I imagine He would have to be right. Observable science goes against all they speak and proclaim. If science is correct, death wouldn't be an enemy of God, it would be His chosen tool. Even the universe appears to be running down/dying. So again this isn't about what I can conceive concerning God, my argument concerns the truthfulness of the entirety of Scripture.
The verse of Scripture has been brought up saying the heavens declare the glory of God. What is it saying? We look at the stars and are amazed. Today we look through our telescopes, and realize just how big everything is. So we are amazed even more. All of it is showing God's power. That is all the verse is saying.
Science on the other hand isn't just about looking and being astonished. Its about a search for the processes of reality. And as I said many times before, the study of science removes God from the equation. Christians who are scientists have stated they keep their beliefs separate from their work. I imagine when they publish peer reviewed articles, God isn't mentioned one time. This separation I argue, leads to the deceptive answer of what science says on origins.
Here's what I want to discuss from believers with this. The world sees death as a natural process, but how does death being "natural" corelates with God's nature? The world thinks we are crazy. That's fine. Yet how do believers see observable science as being consistent with how the scriptures speak concerning God's nature? What is the argument for there being no problem between the two?
The verse of Scripture has been brought up saying the heavens declare the glory of God. What is it saying? We look at the stars and are amazed. Today we look through our telescopes, and realize just how big everything is. So we are amazed even more. All of it is showing God's power. That is all the verse is saying.
Science on the other hand isn't just about looking and being astonished. Its about a search for the processes of reality. And as I said many times before, the study of science removes God from the equation. Christians who are scientists have stated they keep their beliefs separate from their work. I imagine when they publish peer reviewed articles, God isn't mentioned one time. This separation I argue, leads to the deceptive answer of what science says on origins.
Here's what I want to discuss from believers with this. The world sees death as a natural process, but how does death being "natural" corelates with God's nature? The world thinks we are crazy. That's fine. Yet how do believers see observable science as being consistent with how the scriptures speak concerning God's nature? What is the argument for there being no problem between the two?
The heavens that the ancient Hebrews spoke of was not the same heavens that we know about. The heavens spoken of in the Bible was simply a 'snow globe.' A flat circular (like a plate) earth covered by a solid dome firmament in which the sun, moon, and stars were set. and which was supported by pillars (mountains). Probably all ancient peoples on earth had that same general cosmological view of the heavens. The ancient Hebrews were no exception. Science has given us a much more accurate understanding of the 'heavens' than the Bible does.
The heavens that the ancient Hebrews spoke of was not the same heavens that we know about. The heavens spoken of in the Bible was simply a 'snow globe.' A flat circular (like a plate) earth covered by a solid dome firmament in which the sun, moon, and stars were set. and which was supported by pillars (mountains). Probably all ancient peoples on earth had that same general cosmological view of the heavens. The ancient Hebrews were no exception. Science has given us a much more accurate understanding of the 'heavens' than the Bible does.
Would you also say science gives us a more accurate understanding of who God is as well?
How in the world would science do that? You can't conduct tests or experiments on God. You can't develop a hypothesis which can be repeatably tested.
This looks like a ridiculous question unless you can provide some method whereby science could do a scientific study of God.
I'll repeat myself. You don't seem to have any idea at all what science is or what science does.
Because God created the universe, the study of the universe would be examining God's works. So in theory through science, we can learn something about God's character in His creation. All of this is true in the Christian sense because we know God is intimately involved with the creation.
We can't physically see God, but we can see His creation. Just like us studying the ancient ruins of civilizations long ago, we can learn something about the builders through the works they made.
Would you also say science gives us a more accurate understanding of who God is as well?
Perhaps in a certain sense because we know that the universe as we know it is billions of years old, and because life evolves. Therefore, if God is responsible for creation and for life then we know that God chose to bring about the universe as we see it today in a very long drawn out process instead of in the biblical 7 day creation, and that God chose to use evolution to bring about the diversity of life. So if God is responsible for creation then we know, thanks to science, something about how God chooses to do things.
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