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This came up on another thread as an offshoot, and I wanted to hear more from others on the topic in more depth.
Jesus is pretty clear about his message to "Turn the other cheek." Yet so many Christians today support, condone, or would resort to violence themselves. That can be anything from war in another country, to owning a hand gun, to seeking revenge against someone who has harmed you, large or small.
How can Christians condone, support, or participate in violence when Jesus said "Turn the other cheek?" I always heard that as instruction to practice non-violence, and to not respond to acts of aggression in like manner. Just like other great spiritual leaders preached and lived non violence such as Martin Luther King and Gandhi, and many others.
If Christians make exceptions, or rationalize, or justify around that, doesn't that negate someone's whole identification as a Christian?
Looking forward to your wonderful input, as always...
2262 In the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord recalls the commandment, "You shall not kill," and adds to it the proscription of anger, hatred, and vengeance. Going further, Christ asks his disciples to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies. He did not defend himself and told Peter to leave his sword in its sheath.
Legitimate defense
2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor.... the one is intended, the other is not."
2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful.... Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life. Preserving the common good requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. To this end, those holding legitimate authority have the right to repel by armed force aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their charge.
Peaceful demostrations, and acts of non-violence, in order to change problems in society is one thing, but I don't think Jesus meant us to turn the other cheek when it comes to defending ourselves, and our families against physical harm. Personally, I am not a violent person, just out of hand, but, if someone tried to harm me or mine, I would have no compunction about striking back, in any way necessary, in order to protect myself, or my family.
Generally, I dislike simply quoting others to answer a question, but I just can't put it any better than this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S.
2262 In the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord recalls the commandment, "You shall not kill," and adds to it the proscription of anger, hatred, and vengeance. Going further, Christ asks his disciples to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies. He did not defend himself and told Peter to leave his sword in its sheath.
Legitimate defense
2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor.... the one is intended, the other is not."
2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful.... Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life. Preserving the common good requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. To this end, those holding legitimate authority have the right to repel by armed force aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their charge.
Well, I know a lot of people feel that way, and I’m not condemning those who do, but I do take issue with this statement:
Quote:
Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality.
Love towards oneself? Or love towards God and your neighbor?
Scripture references in the NT, and the peaceful way Jesus lived is pretty clear.. and I’ve never seen any clear NT scripture condoning self-defence or retaliation. The only arguments include reasoning with no scripture to back it up.
The way I see it: In the OT, the Israelites were God’s people.. anyone else was their potential enemy, and these were God’s enemies as well. In the NT dispensation, that wall has been torn down. We as Christians have no enemies; everyone is our potential brother. God is no respecter of persons.. neither should we be.
To sum up the way I feel about it: Because of the clear teachings of Jesus, I see no excuse for myself regarding self-defense.. and, just as importantly, because I am a “citizen of a heavenly kingdom”, I see no reason for it either.
Scripture references in the NT, and the peaceful way Jesus lived is pretty clear.. and I’ve never seen any clear NT scripture condoning self-defence or retaliation. We as Christians have no enemies; everyone is our potential brother. God is no respecter of persons.. neither should we be.
To sum up the way I feel about it: Because of the clear teachings of Jesus, I see no excuse for myself regarding self-defense.
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about, and you put it so beautifully, thank you! That's exactly my sense of the truth of the matter too regarding what Jesus put forth for us to do.
So Christians who justify their own personal exceptions to Jesus' view on this.....are violating what Jesus' asks of them.
One could be beaten into the ground a dozen times and not fulfill the blessing of turn the other cheek.
It requires perfect stillness, and only love being sent out to your foe. Father forgive them, they know not what they do...
Or as Stephen when being stoned to death declared. Lay this not to their charge...
DimSumRaja;2602398]This came up on another thread as an offshoot, and I wanted to hear more from others on the topic in more depth.
Jesus is pretty clear about his message to "Turn the other cheek." Yet so many Christians today support, condone, or would resort to violence themselves.
Remember........We only have 2 cheeks beyond that I have received no further instruction.
Quote:
That can be anything from war in another country, to owning a hand gun, to seeking revenge against someone who has harmed you, large or small.
I'll respond to war at the end of my post.
That's quite an all inclusive list! (war to handguns) I own a handgun, and use it as a tool. I live in a rural area, and believe me, a rabid animal takes no prisioners. nor did I. Should I have sent out the dog to take care of business?
Revenge will be mine says the Lord. I leave that one to Him.
BUT..... if the threat is real, and continues to threaten, and I take action to prevent injury... that isn't revenge, that's being responsible.
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How can Christians condone, support, or participate in violence when Jesus said "Turn the other cheek?"
And which cheek do you suppose Jesus turned? when He angerly tosed their sorry-money-changing-butts out of the Temple? I can hear Him say loud and clear... "not in my house"!
I condone, support and would have joined Him, in the "throw the money changer's out" event... at the Temple, in Jerusalem.
Quote:
I always heard that as instruction to practice non-violence, and to not respond to acts of aggression in like manner. Just like other great spiritual leaders preached and lived non violence such as Martin Luther King and Gandhi, and many others.
As with many instructions, there's more! And how will Jesus return? with what on His sword? to do what? with evil?
Quote:
If Christians make exceptions, or rationalize, or justify around that, doesn't that negate someone's whole identification as a Christian?
It certainly does not! Examine your question... and substitute any sin! Being imperfect, a fallen man that I am, does not cancell anything. It actually makes it more apparent that we need an intercessor, something beyond ourselves.
Quote:
Looking forward to your wonderful input, as always...
War... what is it good for? Sounds like a catchy tune... ooops already done.
The sixth commandment "thou shall not kill"...more literally 'thou shall not murder innocent's". When Jesus came to perfect the law... and the sixth commandment is law... how would this manifest itself in today's world?
Joh 15:13 No one has greater love than this – that one lays down his life for his friends.
War.. fought in the streets by Police, fought by many soldiers, against evil to save lives, many lives. Life is precious and Jesus laid His life down, and not without good reason. In the same way, we should be willing to lay down ours when necessary, to protect the innocent.
Semper Fidelis
Killing, death... always tragic... and hopefully, serves a moral purpose. Our fallen state brought death into the equation because of a lie. Our innocence is gone, and the world seems to have gone mad.... Brittney Spears has more people feeling sorry for her, then for a baby who mother throws it into the garbage can... or for the genocidal carnage in Africa.
Peta... says ... and I quote;
"a rat is to a pig as a dog is to a boy".
Scripture references in the NT, and the peaceful way Jesus lived is pretty clear.. and I’ve never seen any clear NT scripture condoning self-defence or retaliation. The only arguments include reasoning with no scripture to back it up.[/color]
We as Christians have no enemies; everyone is our potential brother. God is no respecter of persons.. neither should we be.
To sum up the way I feel about it: Because of the clear teachings of Jesus, I see no excuse for myself regarding self-defense.. and, just as importantly, because I am a “citizen of a heavenly kingdom”, I see no reason for it either.
Interesting way to look at the issue, but although Jesus was peaceful for the most part, I seem to recall a passage where Jesus took a whip and drove the moneychangers from the temple! There wasn't any sweet-talking going on, and it didn't exactly sound peaceful to me. It sounded like he meant business, and he obviously had no qualms about using violence to make his point, very well I might add.
Christians have no enemies? You're certainly entitled to believe it, but this strikes me as an odd statement. Of course Christians have enemies! There are always people looking to destroy Christians, (and other religious/spiritual peoples, for that matter), both as a group, and as individuals. You can't pick up a newspaper or watch a newscast, without learning about another group of Christians, being slaughtered, by their enemies, somewhere in the world. If someone is looking to do me and mine harm, I'm afraid I'm not going to be looking at him as a potential brother. All he is to me, is a dangerous threat! Perhaps that makes me spiritually immature, but, I'll have to take it up with my Creator later, 'cause I'm not just going to stand by, "with Jesus in my heart, and a prayer on my lips", hoping that the threat will go away!
I admire your belief in living peacefully, as you believe Jesus would have you live, and to continually turn that other cheek, but for most of us, the instinct for survival, (which I believe is God-given), will kick in, if we are threatened with danger, no matter how lofty our ideals may be about "the brotherhood of man". If some punk is coming against me with the intent to bring harm, I don't believe I'm going to be in a charitable mood. Even if one is a "citizen of heaven", we should still lock our doors, drive safely, not step in front of a Mack truck, and protect ourselves against human threats, as well! I'm not in any hurry to use that heavenly passport!
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beyond that I have received no further instruction.
I own a handgun, and use it as a tool. I live in a rural area, and believe me, a rabid animal takes no prisioners.
nor did I.
Should I have sent out the dog to take care of business?
then for a baby who mother throws it into the garbage can
... or for the genocidal carnage in Africa. 
but, I'll have to take it up with my Creator later, 'cause I'm not just going to stand by, "with Jesus in my heart, and a prayer on my lips", hoping that the threat will go away!
