California Rail Map (Victorville: 2013, buying, construction)

[EclecticEars]

Released in Nov. 2012, this shows the comprehensive system of rail already in effect in California and how one can ride from any end of the state to the other using the complexities of Amtrak, regional and local rail. This also shows major local bus connections in rural areas from track to interstate highways and small towns, as well as to large airports (**cough** Metro Green Line to LAX).

Pretty fascinating stuff, really. And while some of us (including me) need/want/crave high-speed rail, I see no justification to spend $100B when land hasn't even been acquired yet for the project and such a large, albeit fragmented, system is already in place.

https://5780613a-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites....attredirects=0
or
https://sites.google.com/site/californiarailmap/

[nslander]

Originally Posted by EclecticEars

Released in Nov. 2012, this shows the comprehensive system of rail already in effect in California and how one can ride from any end of the state to the other using the complexities of Amtrak, regional and local rail. This also shows major local bus connections in rural areas from track to interstate highways and small towns, as well as to large airports (**cough** Metro Green Line to LAX).

Pretty fascinating stuff, really. And while some of us (including me) need/want/crave high-speed rail, I see no justification to spend $100B when land hasn't even been acquired yet for the project and such a large, albeit fragmented, system is already in place.

https://5780613a-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites....attredirects=0
or
https://sites.google.com/site/californiarailmap/

Its $66 billion in current dollars. And no major infrastructure project has complete funding up front. We subsidize highways to the tune of $150 billion each year, and nobody says a damn word. Reject the ideological noise and get on board.

[ZhugeLiang]

Originally Posted by nslander

Reject the ideological noise and get on board.

Roads need maintenance, thanks for that bombshell.

The only one who's thinking is clouded by ideological noise is you. First off, the current plans for Low Speed Rail violates the proposition that was voted on, making its very legality questionable.

Second, we've already blown millions on this Browndoggle without laying a single track, so whatever figures have been tossed out there for projections aren't realistic in the slightest.

Third, good luck building the Low Speed Rail system with all the inevitable eminent domain fights and environmental review lawsuits. Tack on about a decade to project completion on that alone and about another $10-$20 billion. Though I predict this thing will eventually get abandoned with some tracks to nowhere laid somewhere around the central valley and left to rust.

This thing has been a disaster from the get-go and Brown and the Low Speed Rail supporters have only themselves to blame. Any new rail systems should have been regionalized like BART to be most effective. A statewide project was not merely overly ambitious, it just isn't realistic. Or we should have just stuck with a L.A.-S.F. line and left at that.

And before we get people in this thread bringing up Europe and Japan, totally different circumstances. Namely, anti-industrial organizations like the Sierra Club that can file lawsuits at will. They don't have to worry about things like that in other countries, we do.

[nslander]

Originally Posted by ZhugeLiang

Roads need maintenance, thanks for that bombshell.

The only one who's thinking is clouded by ideological noise is you. First off, the current plans for Low Speed Rail violates the proposition that was voted on, making its very legality questionable.

Second, we've already blown millions on this Browndoggle without laying a single track, so whatever figures have been tossed out there for projections aren't realistic in the slightest.

Third, good luck building the Low Speed Rail system with all the inevitable eminent domain fights and environmental review lawsuits. Tack on about a decade to project completion on that alone and about another $10-$20 billion. Though I predict this thing will eventually get abandoned with some tracks to nowhere laid somewhere around the central valley and left to rust.

This thing has been a disaster from the get-go and Brown and the Low Speed Rail supporters have only themselves to blame. Any new rail systems should have been regionalized like BART to be most effective. A statewide project was not merely overly ambitious, it just isn't realistic. Or we should have just stuck with a L.A.-S.F. line and left at that.

And before we get people in this thread bringing up Europe and Japan, totally different circumstances. Namely, anti-industrial organizations like the Sierra Club that can file lawsuits at will. They don't have to worry about things like that, we do.

Its happening.

[jkbatca]

Originally Posted by nslander

Its happening.

Define "its happening" [California still hasn't bought land for bullet train route]

[ZhugeLiang]

Originally Posted by jkbatca

Define "its happening" [California still hasn't bought land for bullet train route]

Originally Posted by nslander

Reject the ideological noise and get on board.

Sometimes the jokes write themselves.

[nslander]

Originally Posted by jkbatca

Define "its happening" [California still hasn't bought land for bullet train route]

What about it? It’s just the most recent tantrum from the purveyors of futility. Land purchases usually happen close to the construction start date for transportation projects for many reasons. Most notably, funding to begin purchases usually isn’t available until all other project approvals have been given. And construction can begin soon thereafter because the approvals are in. Just like light rail lines or freeway widening, projects where land acquisition happens without much notice. In fact, if the Rail Authority been buying land prior to the bond release vote last summer, they’d have come under criticism for driving down land prices based on a project that isn’t sure to be built, and hoarding land that theoretically might never be used. That was the controversy in South LA in the 1970s and 1980s when the state had already purchased and cleared the right of way for the Century Freeway/Interstate 105, but did not actually start building until the late ’80s. Some of that delay was due to lawsuits, but other delays came because of uncertain state funding. Had the CHSRA begun purchasing sooner, hacks around the state would criticize the board for that decision as well.

After the land acquisition, the dead-enders will move on their next the ginned-up crisis. My money is on the threat of endless legal challenges, conveniently ignoring the drive in the legislature to amend CEQA to prevent exactly that.

The can’t-do spirit driving the opposition has lost at the ballot box. They’ve lost in the legislature. So far, they lost every legal challenge = “it’s happening”.

[eureka1]

I believe the first phase, out near Victorville or somewhere, IS shovel-ready. Steel Wheels is an excellent publication. Everyone should join RAILPAC. Trains are the logical answer to transportation in the post-fossil fuel era.

[sponger42]

I love high-speed rail and I wish it wasn't, but it's a total waste of time and money. If we could run HSR like it's done in Japan, Europe, China, or Taiwan, where it is an economical alternative to driving, I'd change my tune.

I currently live on the NE Acela system, and I wouldn't dream of using it to go anywhere. While it's marginally faster than driving or taking the bus, it's astronomically expensive; even more expensive than flying. It's at least 10X the cost of riding a bus (to save maybe 2 hours at most), and about 8X the cost of driving. Carpool with 2 or more in the car (families) and you might as well forget about it.

When we lived in LA, we enjoyed taking the Surfliner down to SD on occasion. However, we had to switch to driving, because it's $160 round-trip for two, which is roughly equal to the federal average cost per mile of driving the same distance. Factor in the train's unreliability, having to pay for public transportation in SD, and the fact that my vehicle operating costs are significantly less than the average, it just doesn't make economic sense. Unless you are in the unlikely situation of living car-free in SoCal (and this idea will be a thing of the past in a decade thanks to the self-driving car and car-share programs that are sure to become popular) riding the rails makes no sense at all.

This project should be abandoned in favor of upgrading road infrastructure to prepare the state for widespread self-driving cars, such as dedicated high-speed lanes for fuel-saving self-driving car bumper-to-bumper convoys on the freeways.

The era of passenger rail is past. It's kept alive in Asia due to cheap labor and in Europe and Asia due to high population density.

[DynamoLA]

Originally Posted by eureka1

I believe the first phase, out near Victorville or somewhere, IS shovel-ready. Steel Wheels is an excellent publication. Everyone should join RAILPAC. Trains are the logical answer to transportation in the post-fossil fuel era.

The electricity that will power these trains will still mostly come from fossil fuels.

California's Major Sources of Energy

Over 55% comes from natural gas and coal.