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This is something you probably would never have noticed, because it is not reflected in your mountain of statistics. But, after a player has been seasoned for a few years at the big league level, he starts bringing certain skills with him that are useful in winning games. Like not swinging at bad pitches, or covering the right base, or hitting the cutoff man, or seeing an opportunity to take an extra base, or judging whether a fly ball will be caught, or anticipating what another seasoned veteran will do in a situation.
Why don't you think that these things aren't reflected in statistics?
For example, not swinging at bad pitches would likely lead to a player getting more hits and less outs. Of course those things are reflected in statistics.
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Sorry, but I do not make it my business to keep a running tally of all the possible free agents and waiver lists, nor do I scout recent players to see if they are keeping in shape, so I can't answer your second question.
So, this is not a true statement on your part.
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There are players around with MLB experience, who could be picked up on the waiver wire or who have been released.
What you mean is that "there may be players who could be picked up on the waiver wire or who have been released or there may not".
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But just those that come to mind in the past month who were picked up as free agents include Bobby Abreu, Miguel Tejada, Vladimir Guerrero, Aaron Miles, Felix Pie, Orlando Hudson, and there must be more. With interleague play coming up, they're going to have to use people like Cruz and Robinson and Chambers fir DH. They can have Manny Ramirez.
None of those names (except maybe Hudson) strike me as being more productive than Robinson or Chambers.
Why don't you think that these things aren't reflected in statistics?
For example, not swinging at bad pitches would likely lead to a player getting more hits and less outs. Of course those things are reflected in statistics.
.
The reason you are (constantly) is because you fail to read my post and note that "those things" also included "covering the right base, or hitting the cutoff man, or seeing an opportunity to take an extra base, or judging whether a fly ball will be caught". Which, of course, are clearly reflected in some undisclosed statistics that only you are privy to. So how can the rest of us, who watch games, be expected to know what you find in your special and exclusive statistics, that makes you so much more enlightened?
Please share with us your comparative statistics on how many times Bobby Abreau and Shane Robinson hit the cutoff man, or played the ball off the wall in a certain ballpark correctly, or tested the arm of a certain outfielder, or got a good lead off a certain pitcher. So we can see whether Abreu brings anything experientially to the game that Robinson does not yet offer.
So how can the rest of us, who watch games, be expected to know what you find in your special and exclusive statistics,
Why do you think that I don't watch games?
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Please share with us your comparative statistics on how many times Bobby Abreau and Shane Robinson hit the cutoff man, or played the ball off the wall correctly, or tested the arm of a certain outfielder, or got a good lead off a certain pitcher. So we can see whether Abreu brings anything experientially to the game that Robinson does not yet offer.
The data also tells us if a ball hits off an outfield wall (on the fly) and whether, in the judgment of the “stringer,” it was catchable or not. If not, then the play is ignored. If a “wall ball” was catchable, it is treated like any other batted ball at that distance, with no regard for whether it hit the wall or not.
It was an extremely long site you referred me to, so I jumped first to the summary:
"So, even after regression, there is no guarantee that our UZR number reflects what the player actually did or his true defensive talent over that time period. But, it is the best we can do (not knowing anything else about that player)!"
And I concluded that you can do even better if you DO know something abut that player, particularly how much baseball smarts he might have accumulated over several years of MLB experience.
Tim McCarver, who is not as stupid as a lot of people say he is, once pointed out that players don't really start learning the game until they get to the majors, and sit in the dugout and listen to seasoned veterans talk about how to play the game. There is no substitute for that in the minors.
It was an extremely long site you referred me to, so I jumped first to the summary:
...
And I concluded
This tells me a lot about you and why we might be having issues in seeing eye-to-eye.
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that you can do even better if you DO know something abut that player,
Of course. Of course to accurately compare that player to other players you have to know something about those players as well. To compare all players then we have to know something about every player. That gets quite difficult.
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Tim McCarver, who is not as stupid as a lot of people say he is, once pointed out that players don't really start learning the game until they get to the majors, and sit in the dugout and listen to seasoned veterans talk about how to play the game. There is no substitute for that in the minors.
I don't want to give the impression that I think McCarver is a good baseball announcer, I don't. Couldn't a young baseball player listen to seasoned veterans talk about how to play the game in the minors?
Couldn't a young baseball player listen to seasoned veterans talk about how to play the game in the minors?
That was exactly the point he was addressing. In earlier times, every AAA team had several players playng out their careers who were well into their 30s and had a number of MLB seasons behind them. That is no longer the case, and there is now very little MLB experience on the rosters of AAA teams today. When McCarver was in the minors, MLB veterans were free to return to the minors and stay there pretty well as long as they wanted to, and sometimes a guy would play at AAA for five years, and get another shot. As a result, there was a lot more veteran banter in minor league dugouts, and players arrived in MLB as rookies with a lot more exposure to that.
I just checked a couple of 1958 rosters at random. Indianapolis in the American Association had 16 players during the year who were over 30 with MLB experience (compared to only one in 2011), and Buffalo in the International League had 14. Even Birmingham in the AA Southern Association had 8 players over 30 in 1958, not all with MLB experience, but who had been playing pro ball for a decade. In 2011, Birmingham had only 2 players over 27.
The American League will look a little more balanced, after the AL-Central leaders get finished walking all over the hapless Cardinals, meeting almost no resistance. Or rather, the Memphis RedBirds wearing Cardinal uniforms. A seek from now, even the Royals will look more l like a contender.
That was exactly the point he was addressing. In earlier times, every AAA team had several players playng out their careers who were well into their 30s and had a number of MLB seasons behind them. That is no longer the case, and there is now very little MLB experience on the rosters of AAA teams today. When McCarver was in the minors, MLB veterans were free to return to the minors and stay there pretty well as long as they wanted to, and sometimes a guy would play at AAA for five years, and get another shot. As a result, there was a lot more veteran banter in minor league dugouts, and players arrived in MLB as rookies with a lot more exposure to that.
I just checked a couple of 1958 rosters at random. Indianapolis in the American Association had 16 players during the year who were over 30 with MLB experience (compared to only one in 2011), and Buffalo in the International League had 14. Even Birmingham in the AA Southern Association had 8 players over 30 in 1958, not all with MLB experience, but who had been playing pro ball for a decade. In 2011, Birmingham had only 2 players over 27.
I was looking at something else and was reminded of this conversation.
Thus far, 262 players aged 30 or over have played at least 1 AAA game. That's an average of almost 9 players per team.
I can't easily compare to the numbers from 1958, but I'm certain that the difference in the number of 30+ year old player in AAA in 2012 adn 1958 is not as drastic as you appeared to suggest.
ETA: Actually, that was just hitters I looked at. Let me add in the pitchers
ETA2: There have only been 12 pitchers aged 30 or over who have pitched in AAA. That doesn't substantially alter the numbers.
308 players over 30 played in AAA. So, about 10 per team.
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