Streetcar East extension (Atlanta, Sandy Springs, East Point: fit in, camp, taxes)

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by alco89

Man, I'd LOVE a Peachtree streetcar from Midtown to Buckhead. I can't remember how the streetcar plans got changed from that to what we currently have today.

People in Buckhead didn't want it along their section of Peachtree, and the portion south of Arts Center is right next to/above the existing MARTA North Line.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I know all my big Atlanta transit dreams cost big money and such, but I still wish MARTA could do an infill heavy rail station at Krog St,

Despite the seemingly incessant chatter about it, it's highly unlikely a Krog infill will ever happen. The track is curved, and very elevated over a busy road and railroad. Yes, the HRT was built in that conditional originally, but the key there is built, as in the HRT line wasn't also active. Even if the aren't wasn't unsuitable to an infill station, you'd have to completely shut down the Blue and Green lines for two years or more to get a station in there. Unless they also spliced in a new crossover somewhere, you wouldn't just be losing service between King Memorial and Inman Park, you'd have to shut down the line between East Lake and King Memorial. There's no way a bus bridge could handle that much traffic for that long for that segment!

then run more of a true light rail line (longer trains than the streetcar), branded as such, with fewer but nicer stations, along the east Beltline, between Lindbergh station and a Krog St/ Cabbagetown station. With stops at all the key attractions and major cross streets. That would be a true game changer for Atlanta.

That's what the beltline LRT is going to do aside from maybe the longer trains. However, it's possible the loop routes themselves will be capable of handling longer trains.

As it is, the plan seems to be to take the downtown streetcar, which is already not the most popular thing (if not a complete joke), and slowly meander it on over even more surface streets with cars and traffic lights, then eventually it makes its way to a portion of the Beltline. I mean... that's cool, I guess.

Except for their idiotic insistence on running the westbound trains on Edgewood, the at-grade segments shouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.

I liked the streetcar on Campbellton Rd between the perimeter and Oakland City station idea. Whatever happened to that?

Still in progress as far as I know. There hasn't been much recent news.

Also still wish Peachtree St had a frequent streetcar running on it, from like Brookwood to Downtown. There's like your most ideal streetcar corridor in the entire southeast US.

See my response to alco89 below on this issue.

So of course they're gonna run it on freakin Irwin St, next to a Chevron and a few small houses. Atlanta gonna Atlanta.

Irwin holds a major destination in the form of Krog Street market and Studioplex.

Southeast and Southwest beltline needs light rail, too. Let those lines and Campbellton corridor cover the equity concerns, and also run the streetcar thru wealthy but urban areas of Midtown and south Buckhead and Ansley and Piedmont Park.

I can't disagree.

Originally Posted by alco89

*SNIP*
Me too. It's still on the table (unless the Beltline Rail Now! folks derail it).

Actually this is one like I wouldn't mind not prioritizing. Cambellton rd is more suited for ART or BRT at best. Including this route as LRT has always puzzled me. While yes, there are a lot of apartments and the mall at one end, it's still primarily a commuter route with a morning inbound, afternoon outbound flow, buses can easily handle this route, especially if the larger articulated buses are used.

Man, I'd LOVE a Peachtree streetcar from Midtown to Buckhead. I can't remember how the streetcar plans got changed from that to what we currently have today. That 2nd sentence is way hyperbolic lol. I can't gripe too hard about a 0.7 mile connector route on surface streets to the Beltline.

The reason is the Feds considered the streetcar to be redundant with the heavy rail. Unfortunately the route is a lot more nuanced than that, and the Feds just couldn't see it. Between Arts Center and Lindbergh or Lenox, I vehemently disagree that they're redundant since the HRT is quite far from where the LRT would run. While that segment might have passed on its own, it couldn't exist without a segment to downtown which is where the Feds really had the problem. My problem with their rejection however is that the redundancy that they claimed existed, didn't. A surface streetcar, especially with a lower fare, would create a massive incentive for local trips along the corridor to use transit. Not only would it make transit more appealing to people by not having to go all the way down into a heavy rail station, but it would "create" capacity on MARTA's heavy rail by not having people take up space if they're just going from Midtown down to Peachtree Center, or Arts Center to Civic Center.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I know all my big Atlanta transit dreams cost big money and such, but I still wish MARTA could do an infill heavy rail station at Krog St, then run more of a true light rail line (longer trains than the streetcar), branded as such, with fewer but nicer stations, along the east Beltline, between Lindbergh station and a Krog St/ Cabbagetown station. With stops at all the key attractions and major cross streets. That would be a true game changer for Atlanta.

As it is, the plan seems to be to take the downtown streetcar, which is already not the most popular thing (if not a complete joke), and slowly meander it on over even more surface streets with cars and traffic lights, then eventually it makes its way to a portion of the Beltline. I mean... that's cool, I guess.

I heard long-term they were considering putting a second tunnel under hulsey yard. Medium term, fron what I have a seen so far, I wouldn't be surprised if the Eastside Beltline rail is discontiguous, maybe they will extend the streetcar down the last few blocks of the Beltline, down DeKalb Ave to the MLK/Memorial station, and then from there, the line could split, with some cars going back up towards Edgewood to get back on the Beltline going north, and others turning south under the rail yard at Hill Street or Grant Street. Then they'd have the line going down Memorial to Bill Kennedy, turning south, and skipping the Reynoldstown section entirely. I saw a presentation about this somewhere but I don't remember where.

Originally Posted by MattCW

Actually this is one like I wouldn't mind not prioritizing. Cambellton rd is more suited for ART or BRT at best. Including this route as LRT has always puzzled me. While yes, there are a lot of apartments and the mall at one end, it's still primarily a commuter route with a morning inbound, afternoon outbound flow, buses can easily handle this route, especially if the larger articulated buses are used.

I live in East Point and I kind of feel this way too. Parts of Campbellton Road are basically rural. I think the planning team maybe just isn't familiar with this side of town that much, wants to do something for equity purposes so they can't be accused of ignoring the south side. But they are also, along with the LRT, trying to rezone a quarter mile perimeter around each station location and create new "centers" along Campbellton that don't currently exist. This project is going to considerably change the neighborhood and possibly the tree canopy.

If they want to get people to and from Greenbriar and the Barge Rd Park & Ride by rail, they ought to use that opportunity to connect Greenbriar with other existing centers on the southwest side that don't currently have rail. There is already a rail corridor following it!

If they really want to impact this side of town, they'd extend the blue line from Hamilton E. Holmes (Hightower) station to Adamsville. Turn south and follow the rail line. Put a station at Cascade Rd. Put another one at Campbellton or Fairburn Rd. just outside the perimeter. Put another one at Camp Creek Parkway, and the last one at Union City, with the end of the rail pointed towards Tyrone and Peachtree City, if Fayette ever wants to join.

[primaltech]

Just funny that 100 years ago, Atlanta had a huge streetcar network, with lines running up thru Midtown and Buckhead, Howell Mill, Peachtree St, Ponce, Virginia Highland, even all the way to Marietta and Cobb. Bunch more lines too. Insane.

They ripped all that up, with the promise that MARTA rail was supposed to replace it. Oh, the irony.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Just funny that 100 years ago, Atlanta had a huge streetcar network, with lines running up thru Midtown and Buckhead, Howell Mill, Peachtree St, Ponce, Virginia Highland, even all the way to Marietta and Cobb. Bunch more lines too. Insane.

They ripped all that up, with the promise that MARTA rail was supposed to replace it. Oh, the irony.

That network was mostly gone by the late 1940s before MARTA rail was even a thought.

[JMatl]

Originally Posted by Gulch

That network was mostly gone by the late 1940s before MARTA rail was even a thought.

Exactly. Seattle (where this poster now lives) and every other city not named New Orleans or Pittsburgh did the exact same thing.

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by JMatl

Exactly. Seattle (where this poster now lives) and every other city not named New Orleans or Pittsburgh did the exact same thing.

San Fran and Boston are two others that didn't rip up their rails but pretty much every major to medium sized city in the USA did thanks to the auto industry, tire industry, and big oil. Atlanta was no different unfortunately but good to see rail coming back.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by JMatl

Exactly. Seattle (where this poster now lives) and every other city not named New Orleans or Pittsburgh did the exact same thing.

Plus Seattle turned down federal transit funding that instead went to accelerate construction of MARTA rail.

[MattCW]

So according to the Q&A section of the Streetcar virtual meeting, the top speed of the streetcar along the beltline will be 25mph with potentially slower speeds in pedestrian-heavy areas.

[JMatl]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

San Fran and Boston are two others that didn't rip up their rails but pretty much every major to medium sized city in the USA did thanks to the auto industry, tire industry, and big oil. Atlanta was no different unfortunately but good to see rail coming back.

I can't believe I forgot about Muni and The T! Thanks for the reminder.