New lanes on I-285 top-end to cost $11B+. Enough to build 55 miles of MARTA rail. (Atlanta: living in, bus)

[architect77]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Nope. Other drivers will simply replace those that use HOT lanes in the regular lanes. Road capacity can never be enough to handle the number of people moving around in a large city. We have some of the largest highways in the world and some of the worst traffic. Yet we are far from the most populous.

Traffic in Atlanta sucks, has sucked, and will continue to suck. The only option to improve quality of life is to provide people alternatives to driving. Adding more lanes just causes more people to live further out, drive more, and fill up those lanes.

You've been told many times, that what's missing is the network of non-freeway thoroughfares that people could use to get everywhere in a reasonable amount of time without using the interstates at all.

You're smart enough to know that one wide freeway isn't a sufficient substitute for an intelligent, built-out network of secondary roads where like in Raleigh, people can get anywhere 5 completely different ways in a reasonable amount of time.

The wide freeways are our problem. Entire cardinal directions of suburbs (25% quarters of the metro) each have only one way to traverse the metro.... the one freeway in their direction.

For all of this debate about car travel, you do realize that it's only a problem for the 10 or 15 biggest cities in America.

For the large majority of smaller metros of all sizes up to 3-4 million people, car travel works well and is speedy.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by architect77

You've been told many times, that what's missing is the network of non-freeway thoroughfares that people could use to get everywhere in a reasonable amount of time without using the interstates at all.

You're smart enough to know that one wide freeway isn't a sufficient substitute for an intelligent, built-out network of secondary roads where like in Raleigh, people can get anywhere 5 completely different ways in a reasonable amount of time.

The wide freeways are our problem. Entire cardinal directions of suburbs (25% quarters of the metro) each have only one way to traverse the metro.... the one freeway in their direction.

Name any large city in the world that relies on a "network of non-freeway thoroughfares" to drive around instead of effective transit.

Even if we wanted to do that, no way you are getting support from neighborhoods to plow new secondaries streets through them.

That ship has sailed for Atlanta. Time to talk about options that can work here.

Originally Posted by architect77

For all of this debate about car travel, you do realize that it's only a problem for the 10 or 15 biggest cities in America.

For the large majority of smaller metros of all sizes up to 3-4 million people, car travel works well and is speedy.

We are not one of those smaller metros anymore are we? And especially if we expect Atlanta to continue to grow and prosper we cannot keep this much focus on roads. We need to be looking at higher capacity alternatives.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by architect77

For all of this debate about car travel, you do realize that it's only a problem for the 10 or 15 biggest cities in America.

For the large majority of smaller metros of all sizes up to 3-4 million people, car travel works well and is speedy.

That is a key point. We're trying to stuff 10 lbs of potatoes in a 5 lb sack.

[Need4Camaro]

What is wrong with having both a road and rail network like Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, New York City, ect?

Sure, you'll still have traffic but redundancy is a necessary thing.

In the conscience that the metro neglects rail, I'm deeply against, nor do I call these toll lanes a solution because they do nothing for redundancy... but it doesnt necessarily mean that you can only have one or the other.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by jsvh

False.

I am all for congestion tolls. But lets put it on existing lanes. The $11B tax dollars spent on these lanes will never get recouped.

The $11b price tag covers six separate projects. That's a set of lanes from I75 to I85 on the northside, lanes up 13 miles of 400, lanes on either side of I285 down to I20, and two new interchanges at I20 and I285. That's almost 50 miles of new elevated lanes and two new interchanges on the most congested part of or metro, and a part that would likely be last for transit. Those lanes will get heavily used. Will everything completely pay for itself? probably not. But name any real transportation project that does.

Originally Posted by jsvh

Name any large city in the world that relies on a "network of non-freeway thoroughfares" to drive around instead of effective transit.

Uhhh...pretty much all of them? Every major city in the world has a large road network in addition to transit. Most of them have a substantial arterial road network, which Atlanta does not.

Even if we wanted to do that, no way you are getting support from neighborhoods to plow new secondaries streets through them.

Neighborhoods saying no to better roads: hells yeah! Neighborhoods saying no to apartment buildings: blasphemy!

That ship has sailed for Atlanta. Time to talk about options that can work here.

More underground or elevated rail, like all the major players.

We are not one of those smaller metros anymore are we? And especially if we expect Atlanta to continue to grow and prosper we cannot keep this much focus on roads. We need to be looking at higher capacity alternatives.

We should focus on both.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by architect77

The lanes will eventually raise enough revenue to pay for themselves and build much more stuff in the future.

I just want them to do a high-quality job so the corridors aren't ugly as f*ck.

They will never pay for capital to build them or cover their maintenance.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by architect77

The lanes will eventually raise enough revenue to pay for themselves and build much more stuff in the future.

As someone who works in conjunction with the agency that is building these lanes, this is demonstrably false. The majority of the construction and O&M costs are being financed by federal gas tax revenue (Z001 funding), and won't be paid back.

I just want them to do a high-quality job so the corridors aren't ugly as f*ck.

Their mere presence will be "ugly as [rhymes with muck]."

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by samiwas1

The $11b price tag covers six separate projects. That's a set of lanes from I75 to I85 on the northside, lanes up 13 miles of 400, lanes on either side of I285 down to I20, and two new interchanges at I20 and I285. That's almost 50 miles of new elevated lanes and two new interchanges on the most congested part of or metro, and a part that would likely be last for transit. Those lanes will get heavily used. Will everything completely pay for itself? probably not. But name any real transportation project that does.

It is already getting heavily used and will continue to get heavily used after completion which is exactly the problem. Roads cannot handle high volumes of traffic well. Even if you throw billions towards some updates to existing roads to try to handle it. We could get more miles of brand new rail lines with that money that would add even more capacity than even these expanded roads can handle in total. And we are already handling most of that number of cars without this additional spending.

Originally Posted by samiwas1

Neighborhoods saying no to better roads: hells yeah! Neighborhoods saying no to apartment buildings: blasphemy!

You don't have to use eminent domain or massive tax subsidies to build apartments. Just legalize it. I am all for improving roads if they tolls them to pay for themselves and don't use eminent domain.

Originally Posted by samiwas1

More underground or elevated rail, like all the major players..

Yep. That is worthy of tax spending on this scale. Unfortunately this project will BLOCK the planned route for extending rail further North. So it is worse than doing nothing at all as far as transit is concerned.

[jsvh]

State rejects Alpharetta's proposal for Ga 400 express lanes project

...

Shortly after GDOT’s plans for the project were first unveiled in March of this year, Alpharetta officials began expressing concerns that GDOT’s designs were likely to drive significant increases on local roads that are already at or above capacity during peak commute times. No solutions or support was offered for handling that increased volume.

...


The concept drew loud cries from Alpharetta residents and consternation from Alpharetta elected officials concerned over impacts to nearby neighborhoods as commuters used two-lane neighborhood collector streets to connect to the regional arterial.

...

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by jsvh

And we are already handling most of that number of cars without this additional spending.

"Handling", meaning the entire top end is backed up for hours each day?

Yep. That is worthy of tax spending on this scale. Unfortunately this project will BLOCK the planned route for extending rail further North. So it is worse than doing nothing at all as far as transit is concerned.

Very defeatist. It could easily be designed for elevated transit or some way to get it up there. I'm all for that. Personally, I'd rather them extend the red line instead of the ones on 400 (still want to see lanes on 285). Here's the rub: they just don't want to.

Originally Posted by jsvh

State rejects Alpharetta's proposal for Ga 400 express lanes project

"Shortly after GDOT’s plans for the project were first unveiled in March of this year, Alpharetta officials began expressing concerns that GDOT’s designs were likely to drive significant increases on local roads that are already at or above capacity during peak commute times. No solutions or support was offered for handling that increased volume."

Eh...maybe it'll be like SunTrust Park's extra traffic and turn out to be nothing because everything is so efficient!