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While we have not seen a statistic measuring Apostasy per say,
I think trends would suggest it and I would suggest that the current trend of clergy coming out as agnostic or atheist suggests that it is not members, but trained clergy as well.
Which does not, however, include the religious "con men," those who get into religion strictly for the power and money it could hold, people like Robert Tilton, Josh Osteen or the late Billy Weber.
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Originally Posted by TheWiseWino
1 Corinthians 13:11 "when I was a child, I thought like a child" then I grew up and gave Religion all of them the heave ho!
Now at 70 years if age, I feel and believe myself to be to be just as godless as I did in my 20's and 30's, in fact probably more so!
I find religion, all religions, repugnant, unintellectual, grossly responsible for far too many anti humanistic actions!
THAT is an accurate observation. It has taken me decades of living in my current location to find two religious congregations who are actively involved in community projects, and along the way, many who were not.
Someone mentioned that we atheists are often told "Well you just want to sin...." People forget that we have no concept of Sin. To us, sin is an abstract concept that we do not hold. Sin can be defined as activity which separates humans from god....but since there is no god for which we humans can be separated, there is therefore, no such thing as sin.
There are however, laws, social and legal, for which there are real consequences. There are morals, and those of us who have made it as far as we have often come to the realization that social norms exist for the betterment of society and self respect and self love indicated=s a respect for other humans, which leads many of us towards humanitarian and altruistic paths.
AND NO We DO NOT need a god for ANY Of that....
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Originally Posted by mordant
My tribe taught both ... or made an attempt at balance in both. Salvation by faith, but works as the evidence of genuine faith ... the works don't save you but if they don't come them there can't have been faith.
I sat in on a service after the meeting (to coordinate food for the homeless for the week)
The Episcopal priest who was speaking said this in more or less those same words
He pointed out that protestants have often tried to sell the "salvation by faith " card but if a person lacks good works then they probably lack faith as well. I have to agree with this based on years of observations
When I was growing up back in the days of TV with picture tubes, of which we watched way too much perhaps out of boredom or religious restrictions of whatever, there was a commercial by H&R Block with "another of my 131 reasons why we should do your taxes..." Applying the 131 reasons(or so) of why I stopped attended church, one was because I was tired of the company of shallow, selfish people who openly did not give a measurable mass of equine excrement about anyone else's condition, in being a living example of claiming to have faith and salvation y grace but not giving a rattus' distal alimentary canal opening about works....
I had to step back and say that I did not want to be like those types of people, so why even be around those types of people?
And fortunately, I am not required to be around those kinds of people.
I sat in on a service after the meeting (to coordinate food for the homeless for the week)
The Episcopal priest who was speaking said this in more or less those same words
He pointed out that protestants have often tried to sell the "salvation by faith " card but if a person lacks good works then they probably lack faith as well. I have to agree with this based on years of observations
When I was growing up back in the days of TV with picture tubes, of which we watched way too much perhaps out of boredom or religious restrictions of whatever, there was a commercial by H&R Block with "another of my 131 reasons why we should do your taxes..." Applying the 131 reasons(or so) of why I stopped attended church, one was because I was tired of the company of shallow, selfish people who openly did not give a measurable mass of equine excrement about anyone else's condition, in being a living example of claiming to have faith and salvation y grace but not giving a rattus' distal alimentary canal opening about works....
I had to step back and say that I did not want to be like those types of people, so why even be around those types of people?
And fortunately, I am not required to be around those kinds of people.
Similar experience here, but much rides on how one interprets "works". For us, works were basically everything, not just, say, helping the poor (which was just a throw away abstraction to us anyway, we definitely didn't do that in any meaningful way, not without lots of strings attached anyway). So this verse was basically a litmus test ... if a person claims to be a Christian but is not doing it right (living in sin, disrespectful, rebellious, or back in the day really, even sporting a beard) then those are not the "good works" that should follow from salvation. "Works" was just acting right according to our lights and meeting our expectations.
While we have not seen a statistic measuring Apostasy per say,
I think trends would suggest it and I would suggest that the current trend of clergy coming out as agnostic or atheist suggests that it is not members, but trained clergy as well.
I would be more curious as to learn why some of the clergy decided to bail.
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Which does not, however, include the religious "con men," those who get into religion strictly for the power and money it could hold, people like Robert Tilton, Josh Osteen or the late Billy Weber.
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THAT is an accurate observation. It has taken me decades of living in my current location to find two religious congregations who are actively involved in community projects, and along the way, many who were not.
I can't remember the name of the book, but it was a book I read about 4 years ago. It had to do with some quotes on various topics from some highly respected clergy (not only Catholic). One of the quotes was from a Catholic priest regarding local Catholic churches helping the poor. He said (to paraphrase) that if *your* church doesn't participate in helping the poor in SOME way, find a different church! When I read that, I recalled that my own church had recently stopped sponsoring a food drive claiming that "not enough people were attending." Needless to say, hearing that was very disappointing.
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Someone mentioned that we atheists are often told "Well you just want to sin...." People forget that we have no concept of Sin. To us, sin is an abstract concept that we do not hold. Sin can be defined as activity which separates humans from god....but since there is no god for which we humans can be separated, there is therefore, no such thing as sin.
I think the whole idea of "Well you just want to sin..." leans more toward theists who became atheists, than those who have always been atheists. And the 'sin' usually has to do with sex!
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There are however, laws, social and legal, for which there are real consequences. There are morals, and those of us who have made it as far as we have often come to the realization that social norms exist for the betterment of society and self respect and self love indicated=s a respect for other humans, which leads many of us towards humanitarian and altruistic paths.
AND NO We DO NOT need a god for ANY Of that....
As to what's bolded, it's unfortunate that only SOME have come that realization, whether theist OR atheist.
As for your last line, I can't really debate that with you on this forum.
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I sat in on a service after the meeting (to coordinate food for the homeless for the week)
The Episcopal priest who was speaking said this in more or less those same words
He pointed out that protestants have often tried to sell the "salvation by faith " card but if a person lacks good works then they probably lack faith as well. I have to agree with this based on years of observations
I agree, too. To me, it's not even ONLY about "salvation" in the spiritual 'godly' sense, but in COMMON sense. After all, if I sat around the house all day, and played Sudoku on the computer, all the while thinking, "I HAVE FAITH that God will give me a job!"...without lifting a finger to do anything, can I really hold God accountable if God doesn't *plop* a job into my lap?
Yet some were taught exactly that; that if we do anything to contribute toward our own desires/wants/needs, we're not 'trusting' God. I can easily see that with that belief how one could become disappointed, over and over again...to the point of leaving the faith. As Mordant so eloquently pointed out in his last post to me (in part), had he been a member of a denomination that "had lower / more realistic expectations..." he may still be 'religious' to a point.
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When I was growing up back in the days of TV with picture tubes, of which we watched way too much perhaps out of boredom or religious restrictions of whatever, there was a commercial by H&R Block with "another of my 131 reasons why we should do your taxes..." Applying the 131 reasons(or so) of why I stopped attended church, one was because I was tired of the company of shallow, selfish people who openly did not give a measurable mass of equine excrement about anyone else's condition, in being a living example of claiming to have faith and salvation y grace but not giving a rattus' distal alimentary canal opening about works....
I had to step back and say that I did not want to be like those types of people, so why even be around those types of people?
And fortunately, I am not required to be around those kinds of people.
Boy oh boy, you said a mouthful there! Seeing/hearing the way some 'Christians' and yes, even Catholics behave makes me embarrassed sometimes to call myself a Christian and/or a Catholic!
Big fan of the last sentence of your first paragraph. Extremely well put.
I was a very trusting, gullible kid. Precocious academically, but not at all wise to the 'ways of the world'. As such, I think I may have been the last kid in my class to stop believing in Santa Claus. So I was never a prime candidate to shed the supreme fairy tale at an especially early age. I questioned doctrinal aspects, but I don't know if I even thought to question the actual existence of God until I got to college and was exposed to secular, oft-atheistic philosophy. In high school, I recall having an hourslong debate about the existence of God with my atheist-best friend, but at that point I was too convinced to be at all shaken by his arguments. And the next time I saw my friend, we just resumed making jokes and talking about our mundane high school lives, so that conversation about religion was an anomaly. I just trusted my family, my teachers, the priests, all of it. And I took it very seriously, more seriously than most of my peers (or so it seemed to me anyway).
So taking all of that into consideration, it's no wonder that I experienced the loss of my faith as a true crisis. Legitimately took me years to recover from it
Believing in God is often compared to believing in Santa Claus, but upon reading your comment here, I got to thinking a little deeper about how the two compare and why most all of us once believed in Santa Clause as children...
Is it perhaps at least in part a result of not yet having the experience nor the inclination to question what we are raised to believe as children? I'm reflecting on how I was once a strong believer in both God and Santa Claus, beyond any doubt. Interesting to think about how that was possible now that I am a good deal older with far more life experience under my belt, as an atheist for most of my life now.
Glad you asked. I almost posted why I was asking after a handful of posts but decided to wait to get more responses.
Most who know me here know I'm Catholic. And as a Catholic, we obviously have some different opinions/different doctrines than that of our non-Catholic Christian brethren. One of those differences is that Catholics are not Sola Scriptura...or of the "Faith ALONE" camp. And yet I see (online) many who were of those camps who eventually...'defected'.
I'm just wondering if some atheists had switched doctrines instead of ditching Christianity all together, if it would have made a difference in their decision.
An atheist on this forum once asked me (I'm paraphrasing), "Yo, MINK! Did you even consider other religions before deciding to go with Catholicism?" My answer was, "Yes, I did." But I can pose a similar question back to that atheist: Did *you* ever consider other religions before deciding to ditch Christianity?"
I see a number of atheists/used-to-be-Christians here who have spoken about some of the beliefs they grew up with, while Christian. Having "Faith ALONE" seemed to be a biggie. And I can see that if they had Faith Alone, and NOTHING CAME OF THAT, they could absolutely become disillusioned.
Glad you started this thread. Interesting. Thanks...
I too was raised a Catholic, and I didn't "switch doctrines" because as I began to question the beliefs I was raised to accept, the first and most fundamental question I began to address was the existence of a god. Obviously, if I could not find convincing evidence a god actually existed, there was little point in considering the adoption of any other religion. Most of which are based on a belief in a god of one sort or another. One way or another. I studied other religions mostly to understand their similarities and/or differences, but never for purposes of adopting any, because by then I had become an atheist. Ultimately, once I began to question the existence of a god let alone the Catholic religion, I had to conclude or recognize the truth about all this as best I was able to establish, rendering me an atheist.
So you say you considered other religions before ending up a Catholic. What was the first religious belief you adopted or grew up with? Did you ever adopt a religion or belief that was not Catholic?
It seems that many atheists here used to be Christians. My question is: While practicing Christianity, did you believe in Sola Scriptura and/or "Faith ALONE"?
I am not an atheist, but I am an agnostic deist who was raised Methodist, and I don't ever remember believing that the Bible was as factual as the Encyclopedia Britannica, for example. Even as a young teen, I realized that no one could no for sure how the world was created unless s/he had a direct conversation with God, which wasn't likely, or that those who created it did so because they some kind of "link" with God. I started directly questioning the bible itself regarding Genesis and much of the New Testament starting when I was about 13 or so.
And I have never believed that people can go to heaven, if there is such a place, by just proclaiming their faith. I am quite sure that there are many bad people who sincerely believe that they are good Christians and read the bible and preach to others, but I think they are less likely to go to "heaven" than non-believers who devote their lives to trying to help others in practical ways (such as volunteering in homeless shelters).
P.S. And please do not "lambast" me for the above OPINION. I very rarely post in any of the Religion forums because it seems that when I do, at least one person feels it is his or her duty to lecture me and tell me how full of rot my opinion is. I am not talking to you personally, OP, but to the posters here in general!
Glad you started this thread. Interesting. Thanks...
I too was raised a Catholic, and I didn't "switch doctrines" because as I began to question the beliefs I was raised to accept, the first and most fundamental question I began to address was the existence of a god. Obviously, if I could not find convincing evidence a god actually existed, there was little point in considering the adoption of any other religion. Most of which are based on a belief in a god of one sort or another. I studied other religions mostly to understand their similarities and/or differences, but never for purposes of adopting any, because by then I had become an atheist. Ultimately, once I began to question the existence of a god let alone the Catholic religion, I had to conclude or recognize the truth about all this as best I was able to establish, rendering me an atheist.
So you say you considered other religions before ending up a Catholic. What was the first religious belief you adopted or grew up with?
It's kind of hard for me to pinpoint....
Probably the first real religious belief I had was when I was in first grade. I was taught that GOD IS EVERYWHERE. Of course, I 'pictured' God as looking like the Old White Guy in Michaelangelo's The Creation Of Adam, floating around in the clouds. Thunderbolts and lightning coming out of His fingertips at a spoken word...
Of course, I was like five at the time...
It took me several decades to believe that God didn't so much create what exists; but that God IS existence. Or rather, the 'force' behind what 'we' consider to be existence.
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Did you ever adopt a religion or belief that was not Catholic?
Adopt? No. Consider? Yes. Even though I was Catholic while growing up, I lived within predominantly Jewish communities. I ADORE Jewish wisdom. I also like wisdom from the Baha'i faith...and Buddhism...and believe it or not, some from the Quran. Protestantism? Sure. I was hooked on Joyce Meyer for a short time (I know, I know, I know...). Used to listen to SOS radio constantly...
I did not have the greatest upbringing LM, and once my grandmother died, I tried to stay as FAR AWAY from any and ALL religions as POSSIBLE. For about 15 years, God to me, was some 'background noise' that would raise it's ugly voice occasionally...and all I had to do was to *punch* it down into the depths of my soul...for a while. I felt victorious.
For a while. My re-joining the Catholic faith was slOOOOOOOW.
I know this whole post is getting a bit long...So, let me just conclude with, my re-joining of the Catholic faith was NOT based on "Faith ALONE..."
As always, a pleasure to see you, LM! Thanks for asking!
I am not an atheist, but I am an agnostic deist who was raised Methodist, and I don't ever remember believing that the Bible was as factual as the Encyclopedia Britannica, for example. Even as a young teen, I realized that no one could no for sure how the world was created unless s/he had a direct conversation with God, which wasn't likely, or that those who created it did so because they some kind of "link" with God. I started directly questioning the bible itself regarding Genesis and much of the New Testament starting when I was about 13 or so.
O.k. So far, makes sense.
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And I have never believed that people can go to heaven, if there is such a place, by just proclaiming their faith. I am quite sure that there are many bad people who sincerely believe that they are good Christians and read the bible and preach to others, but I think they are less likely to go to "heaven" than non-believers who devote their lives to trying to help others in practical ways (such as volunteering in homeless shelters).
I agree. And I'm Catholic/Christian! Go figure!
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P.S. And please do not "lambast" me for the above OPINION. I very rarely post in any of the Religion forums because it seems that when I do, at least one person feels it is his or her duty to lecture me and tell me how full of rot my opinion is. I am not talking to you personally, OP, but to the posters here in general!
Well, the GOOD news is that you're in a forum that's supposed to be protected from Christians who would lambast you for your own beliefs/opinions.
I hope you post more often, because it seems like you may have a lot to say. No lambasting by me.
Believing in God is often compared to believing in Santa Claus, but upon reading your comment here, I got to thinking a little deeper about how the two compare and why most all of us once believed in Santa Clause as children...
Is it perhaps at least in part a result of not yet having the experience nor the inclination to question what we are raised to believe as children? I'm reflecting on how I was once a strong believer in both God and Santa Claus, beyond any doubt. Interesting to think about how that was possible now that I am a good deal older with far more life experience under my belt, as an atheist for most of my life now.
At a young age, I remember other kids being more likely to 'misbehave' than I was. That certainly changed as I grew older, but up until around age 8 or 9, I was very obedient to authority figures, applying lots of pressure on myself to achieve in school and to act in accordance with the wishes of my elders. Add in the trusting component, and it only makes sense to me in retrospect that I was among the last of my peers (if not the very last) to give up my belief in Santa/the Easter Bunny/the Tooth Fairy. Plus, I had an overprotective mother. Eventually I ended up swinging towards the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of insistence on thinking for myself and, to some degree, rebelliousness, but I would certainly give an emphatic answer of 'yes' to the question you pose in the first sentence of your second paragraph.
Similar experience here, but much rides on how one interprets "works". For us, works were basically everything, not just, say, helping the poor (which was just a throw away abstraction to us anyway, we definitely didn't do that in any meaningful way, not without lots of strings attached anyway). So this verse was basically a litmus test ... if a person claims to be a Christian but is not doing it right (living in sin, disrespectful, rebellious, or back in the day really, even sporting a beard) then those are not the "good works" that should follow from salvation. "Works" was just acting right according to our lights and meeting our expectations.
I had a fundy (A Karen one in fact) tell me a few years ago that the actions of the local Buddhist temple are evil. The temple provides food and meals to the community, as well as free classes, free books, and has helped numerous people by bringing the community together, (mostly Thai, but no one is turned away) and allowing for a location for classes, fellowship and events.
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Anyway, Fundy Karen said that because they are not doing the charity and works in the name of Jesus, they are doing evil. Apparently, being a Buddhist and giving someone who is hungry a meal is somehow evil. But being a Christian and doing the exact same thing is good?
And we wonder why mental illness is so prevalent in the uneducated, fundy population.....
It is a shame that the insurance companies have withheld SSRI's from some of these people who need it most.....
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). Used to listen to SOS radio constantly...
