Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I am in the military currently stationed in Alaska and my wife and I are looking for some land to buy that we can build our retirement/forever home on in about 8 years when I get out of the military. We settled on Wyoming for a multitude of reasons and we just got back from taking a trip out there to look at the land before buying. We started our search in Laramie and Cheyenne but ruled out Laramie due to future job opportunities for us (my wife is a nurse and I do logistics in the Army) and ruled out Cheyenne since we couldn't find the amount of land we want (20-40 acres, we have horses and want to build a barn and riding arena so we can finally have them at home instead of boarding them) within a decent proximity to the city for commuting to work.
We ended up looking at Casper and decided to take the trip up there and loved the city and atmosphere! It seemed like there would be a decent amount of opportunities for us both.
We found some properties that were priced well and seemed to have what we are looking for in the BB Brooks Ranch but just wanted some local knowledge on the ranch and Casper as a whole before we put in our offer.
Is there anything we should know about those parcels? We went and saw them in person so we are ok with the landscape and feel of the place as a whole. It looked like some decent houses were built there so doesn't seem like any problems from a building perspective?
We are ok with the climate, we live in Alaska in a valley so we get crazy winds and snow drifts as well as bitterly cold. Understand that the water quality is not the best and drilling a well is probably not going to happen. We are ok with a cistern set up and hauling in water - I assume we can fill up water tanks and haul it in from the city?
We were looking at lots that had power close by and doing the estimate tool on Rocky Mount we understand the cost to run electric to where the house would be if we decide not to go the solar route. I also read about some surveying concerns at BB Brooks and knowing where your boundaries are - we would get a professional survey done before purchasing.
Thanks for any information you can provide or any comments! We are excited to finally plant some roots.
BB Brooks, you will have to fence your property well as the land not sold is leased out to a ranch for grass. That area get close to 100 acres per year per cow. So you will not be grazing horses for very long and will be buying hay most of the year. Land is sold on a contract basses , , monthly payments and title at end of contract. Big ranches in big country in Natrona County.
If you plan on buying via the 10% down and contract to deed purchase, understand that you do not own the property until the contract has been paid in full and filed with the Secretary of State as paid. Any improvements you make on the property become part of the property. The risk to you as a buyer is if you are unable to make the contract payments, per the terms of the contract default process, the property reverts back to the seller without any need for a foreclosure on a mortgage because you never owned the property (it was never titled in your name) to begin with. All takes place without any need for legal action, it's all in-house with a notice to you that you've defaulted and you're no longer the buyer.
Sellers rely upon this process to sell parcels to folk with less than good credit, or to people who have never toured the property but have bought into the sales/marketing process ... "the dream of your own piece of the 'ol west". A fairly high percentage of unknowledgeable buyers will, in due course, default on the purchase for many reasons ... and lose their deposit and any payments they've made. Absent being able to sell the parcel and pay off the contract before the default is processed would be the only way to avoid losing all the money spent and the improvements.
Don't overlook the HOA monthly cost, either ... if you're buying the property now with a view towards moving here in 8 years, that's at least 96 monthly payments for services and fees without a real benefit to you during those years. IMO, that's a significant burden on the acquisition and your development cost of the property.
As Jody points out, your parcel will be used as part of the leased grazing until such time as you "fence out" the livestock. It's nice work if you can get it ... "sell the parcel and get payments for it, and at the same time, get leased revenue from others for productive use of the parcel". Do you have the time to build the fencing and to maintain it until you've moved to the parcel?
You might ask how many of the "sold" parcels have been defaulted and sold again in the development. It's unlikely that you'll get a good answer from the developer. Historically, however, this has been a significant % of such developments ... folk buy on the whim and the excitement, and then much later find out what it will really cost them to build their "dream" residence, how much it will cost to insure it (maybe you're not in an area served by a Fire Department?) ... this leads to additional complications ... say, if you need a bank loan to build your residence and desired outbuildings, get power to the property, install a septic system, get all the completion done to an occupancy certificate, etc. ... unlikely that a bank will loan on the project if you can't get homeowner's insurance with that all-important loss payable clause to the lender to protect their position in the property. It's all these follow-on costs that dawn on people in due course that they've taken on a project they can't afford ... so the easiest way out at that point is to quit making the contract to deed payments (and walk away from all they've spent to date).
I suggest you take a look at the Wind Energy Density Charts for this area. It's the highest average wind energy density in the continental USA. While you may be living now in an area with some serious weather impacts, it may not be as severe as this area around Casper. You can expect 5-6 months every year of this development having severe weather impacts ... is this how you really want to spend your retirement years? You'll not be out riding your horses for most of this time period, but you will be feeding & sheltering them, and with vet care, farrier care, and general maintenance an ongoing expense. Current prices on horse quality hay in the area are fairly high, and you'll be feeding your horses all year 'round.
I don't know what the current expense would be for a riding arena in that location. 18 years ago, I bought a 180' x 240' arena (in the SE WY area) with an attached office, 12 stalls, sizable tack room for 25 horses, bathroom/shower/laundry, and feed/hay storage. It was unheated, and I installed a gas-fired radiant overhead heating system to make it useable during the winter months here. Even with a timer on the heating system so that is was "on" only during the time of riders in the arena, it was a staggering monthly utility bill ... and that was on a municipal gas line rather than propane. It took 15-20 minutes for the radiant system to heat up enough to be useful for a rider, and I had a lot of complaints from tenants that didn't like it compared to heating the arena with forced-air heaters. Forced air heating would have been prohibitive to operate, especially with all the drafts in the arena. I bought it for $200,000, which was way below it's replacement cost. Friends of mine built a new arena West of Town ... a steel building rather than the pole barn construction of mine ... and spent over $1mil on it ... it wasn't much larger than my arena, although it did have forced air heating, several bathrooms, offices, and more stalls. Their plan was to rent it out to horse trainers/riding clubs for group events to help pay for their personal riding use of the facility ... I rode there a few times, it was very nice but I can't say that I liked having the steel roof supports intruding into the riding space compared to the vertical walls of my pole barn style arena.
I regard these 40 acre ranchette "developments" as about as worthwhile as a time-share condo at a resort property. Having inherited a couple of these (2b/2ba, on the golf course), I quickly found out they were losers for me with all their fees and being unable to use them (I'm not a golfer). Even when I could trade the "points" to use at a location that I'd want to go to ... by the time I paid the user fees and the HOA's and the annual "assessments" ... I could have gone to a nicer resort and spent far less money. And I wouldn't have had to endure the hours-long "mandatory" sales conferences and the extreme high-pressure sales tactics to "upgrade" my condo ownership level, which wasn't going to happen. For me, they were losers from the start and far from being "worth" $100,000+, I couldn't sell them for $20,000. In the end, I wound up returning the condo titles to the association and received no compensation ... in exchange for being released from the annual assessments and fees.
I wouldn't want to buy a parcel in an HOA development, and I certainly wouldn't want to buy anything on a "contract to deed" purchase. Perhaps it might be better to keep looking for another parcel? If you consider an arena adequate for your horsemanship requirements, and/or are willing to trailer your horses to open spaces where you can trail ride, if that's your riding pleasure ... you can get by very comfortably on a 5-10 acre property for a house, arena, corrals, and a barn. And very important ... look for a property with a developed potable water source or in an area served with a quality water system. IMO, hauling water or having it tanked in is an ongoing expense that will be more than the cost of having water to the property as the years go by. A couple of horses can go through a lot of water per day, it's not just your domestic use per person that comes in to play ... and what about landscaping? gardening? even a well thought out xeriscape with some trees for a windbreak at the house can use a lot of water during the non-winter months.
Looks like you are doing your homework. Good for you.
Google “potable water delivery Casper wy”. I see an option or two there for you.
Can’t offer much more help than that. Good luck.
Thanks! Yeah I did do that, at least in my younger years we would go get the water ourselves instead of paying to have it delivered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jody_wy
BB Brooks, you will have to fence your property well as the land not sold is leased out to a ranch for grass. That area get close to 100 acres per year per cow. So you will not be grazing horses for very long and will be buying hay most of the year. Land is sold on a contract basses , , monthly payments and title at end of contract. Big ranches in big country in Natrona County.
Yup figured we would still be buying hay! That was always in the plan anyways - never planned on being able to sustain them with grazing only. That is good to know about the contract basis, I was wondering how the deal would go down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW Crow
I hear from stories that land sold on a contract basis is pretty easy to lose over missed monthly payment.
That is definitely good to know! We could afford to pay outright for it but at the current interest rate they are offering we would finance it with them and pay it off early depending on market conditions etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit
If you plan on buying via the 10% down and contract to deed purchase, understand that you do not own the property until the contract has been paid in full and filed with the Secretary of State as paid. Any improvements you make on the property become part of the property. The risk to you as a buyer is if you are unable to make the contract payments, per the terms of the contract default process, the property reverts back to the seller without any need for a foreclosure on a mortgage because you never owned the property (it was never titled in your name) to begin with. All takes place without any need for legal action, it's all in-house with a notice to you that you've defaulted and you're no longer the buyer.
Sellers rely upon this process to sell parcels to folk with less than good credit, or to people who have never toured the property but have bought into the sales/marketing process ... "the dream of your own piece of the 'ol west". A fairly high percentage of unknowledgeable buyers will, in due course, default on the purchase for many reasons ... and lose their deposit and any payments they've made. Absent being able to sell the parcel and pay off the contract before the default is processed would be the only way to avoid losing all the money spent and the improvements.
That is good information to know! I was wondering how the contract would go down. We would be taking advantage of the interest rate they are offering based on 30% down - we have the assets to buy it outright and we have excellent credit (both of us are 800+ for both FICO 8 and 2/4/5 scores) but the interest rate is so low that at least in the current environment it makes sense to borrow the money. This is good information to know though and we would definitely stay on top of the payments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit
Don't overlook the HOA monthly cost, either ... if you're buying the property now with a view towards moving here in 8 years, that's at least 96 monthly payments for services and fees without a real benefit to you during those years. IMO, that's a significant burden on the acquisition and your development cost of the property.
Yes we factored this in, it currently sits at $350 a year with $250 a year in property taxes. The HOA fees can raise no more than 10% per year. We have factored it in and are comfortable with it. We actually are leaning towards some were that has CCRs which in turn usually means HOA fees. We looked at properties in Wyoming without CCRs and usually it had neighbors who's properties did not look like properties we would like to be neighbors with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit
As Jody points out, your parcel will be used as part of the leased grazing until such time as you "fence out" the livestock. It's nice work if you can get it ... "sell the parcel and get payments for it, and at the same time, get leased revenue from others for productive use of the parcel". Do you have the time to build the fencing and to maintain it until you've moved to the parcel?
Our plan would be to fence it out after a few years before we start construction - give the land enough time to recover from being grazed. But yes we would have the time to do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit
You might ask how many of the "sold" parcels have been defaulted and sold again in the development. It's unlikely that you'll get a good answer from the developer. Historically, however, this has been a significant % of such developments ... folk buy on the whim and the excitement, and then much later find out what it will really cost them to build their "dream" residence, how much it will cost to insure it (maybe you're not in an area served by a Fire Department?) ... this leads to additional complications ... say, if you need a bank loan to build your residence and desired outbuildings, get power to the property, install a septic system, get all the completion done to an occupancy certificate, etc. ... unlikely that a bank will loan on the project if you can't get homeowner's insurance with that all-important loss payable clause to the lender to protect their position in the property. It's all these follow-on costs that dawn on people in due course that they've taken on a project they can't afford ... so the easiest way out at that point is to quit making the contract to deed payments (and walk away from all they've spent to date).
This is probably my biggest concern and something we have looked into. It is clear that a lot of people bought and ended up not being able to build just based on the amount of vacant lots out there. We did look into insurance in some aspects, it is serviced by a Fire Department (it is actually extremely close to one), it has power at the edge of the property and using the Rocky Mount estimator we know about what we are getting into getting power laid to the actual house. So I believe insurance will not be an issue to obtain for mortgage purposes however do you have a good idea to get an estimate of how much it be annually? Obviously there are a lot of factors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit
I suggest you take a look at the Wind Energy Density Charts for this area. It's the highest average wind energy density in the continental USA. While you may be living now in an area with some serious weather impacts, it may not be as severe as this area around Casper. You can expect 5-6 months every year of this development having severe weather impacts ... is this how you really want to spend your retirement years? You'll not be out riding your horses for most of this time period, but you will be feeding & sheltering them, and with vet care, farrier care, and general maintenance an ongoing expense. Current prices on horse quality hay in the area are fairly high, and you'll be feeding your horses all year 'round.
We did look at wind density charts for the area. Casper definitely has more consistent wind then we have up here albeit we have stronger winds when we get them. I should clarify when I said "retirement" I really meant from the Army, I will only be 42. We plan on staying there till we pass but there is also a chance that once we are too old to take care of horses we decide to sell and move somewhere. But yes we have talked about the weather and had some serious conversations about it and we are ok with it. Price of hay I am sure is high - not as high as Alaska- and that is something that is just a matter of a fact almost anywhere we live. Same with all their medical and farrier bill etc. It is a part of life with horses and not having to board them is a significant cost savings that is applied towards these other areas. You would be shocked at boarding prices up here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit
I don't know what the current expense would be for a riding arena in that location. 18 years ago, I bought a 180' x 240' arena (in the SE WY area) with an attached office, 12 stalls, sizable tack room for 25 horses, bathroom/shower/laundry, and feed/hay storage. It was unheated, and I installed a gas-fired radiant overhead heating system to make it useable during the winter months here. Even with a timer on the heating system so that is was "on" only during the time of riders in the arena, it was a staggering monthly utility bill ... and that was on a municipal gas line rather than propane. It took 15-20 minutes for the radiant system to heat up enough to be useful for a rider, and I had a lot of complaints from tenants that didn't like it compared to heating the arena with forced-air heaters. Forced air heating would have been prohibitive to operate, especially with all the drafts in the arena. I bought it for $200,000, which was way below its replacement cost. Friends of mine built a new arena West of Town ... a steel building rather than the pole barn construction of mine ... and spent over $1mil on it ... it wasn't much larger than my arena, although it did have forced air heating, several bathrooms, offices, and more stalls. Their plan was to rent it out to horse trainers/riding clubs for group events to help pay for their personal riding use of the facility ... I rode there a few times, it was very nice but I can't say that I liked having the steel roof supports intruding into the riding space compared to the vertical walls of my pole barn style arena.
We looked into metal structures already, and based on the estimates it would around 150-200k installed. I have not priced out a pole barn yet. We ride in metal arenas up here and I agree the supports taking up riding space can be annoying. Based on the average low temperatures we would most likely not heat the indoor. Considering how cold it is up here, our heated indoor that is at the boarding facility is only able to maintain a temperature that is about the average low up there, and we ride during the winter without a problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit
I regard these 40 acre ranchette "developments" as about as worthwhile as a time-share condo at a resort property. Having inherited a couple of these (2b/2ba, on the golf course), I quickly found out they were losers for me with all their fees and being unable to use them (I'm not a golfer). Even when I could trade the "points" to use at a location that I'd want to go to ... by the time I paid the user fees and the HOA's and the annual "assessments" ... I could have gone to a nicer resort and spent far less money. And I wouldn't have had to endure the hours-long "mandatory" sales conferences and the extreme high-pressure sales tactics to "upgrade" my condo ownership level, which wasn't going to happen. For me, they were losers from the start and far from being "worth" $100,000+, I couldn't sell them for $20,000. In the end, I wound up returning the condo titles to the association and received no compensation ... in exchange for being released from the annual assessments and fees.
I wouldn't want to buy a parcel in an HOA development, and I certainly wouldn't want to buy anything on a "contract to deed" purchase. Perhaps it might be better to keep looking for another parcel? If you consider an arena adequate for your horsemanship requirements, and/or are willing to trailer your horses to open spaces where you can trail ride, if that's your riding pleasure ... you can get by very comfortably on a 5-10 acre property for a house, arena, corrals, and a barn. And very important ... look for a property with a developed potable water source or in an area served with a quality water system. IMO, hauling water or having it tanked in is an ongoing expense that will be more than the cost of having water to the property as the years go by. A couple of horses can go through a lot of water per day, it's not just your domestic use per person that comes in to play ... and what about landscaping? gardening? even a well thought out xeriscape with some trees for a windbreak at the house can use a lot of water during the non-winter months.
And this is where we disagree, I normally would be with out and against a HOA development but based on what we saw on other parcels, we like the idea of having some rules to maintain property values. We did look for 5-10 acres and couldn't quite find anything that met our requirements. I appreciate the insight all definitely good things to think about!
1) an HOA or CC&R development is no better or worse than the management/HOA committee activity. Control and enforcement run the gamut from "non-existent to committee members that are on your property with a measuring tape to be sure that your fence meets their specifications, or that the paint on your house is an approved color and of cosmetically correct appearance, or your garbage cans properly hidden from public view by an enclosure or inside a structure". IMO, best to ask the folk now living in the subdivision their take on the HOA activities, code enforcement, road maintenance and plowing in the winter months, etc.
2) Before signing that "contract to deed" with the nice interest rate ... be sure to get a copy of the contract up-front and read it. I've seen more than a few that had substantial pre-payment penalties or other clauses in there that were solely to the benefit of the lender. Even with your "best planning", your circumstances may change before your retirement ... and you may need to cancel this project due to a situation beyond your control.
3) The number you've been quoted for building an arena looks rather low. I've got 2 neighbors, both GC's, who build these types of structures from planning to zoning permits to inspection/completion for occupancy ... and their numbers are closer to $25 psf. They're booked solid for 2024 already and quoting new projects for 2025. And that's just the steel shell of a building, big sliding barn doors or roll-up doors are an extra. Not to mention interior lighting, that's also an additional item.
I've wanted an indoor or even just a covered arena for a long time. Could care less about heat.
Were blessed to be able to afford one....but I won't for one reason...the TAXES! I'm fairly certain our taxes are pi$$ed away and I refuse to give them more. I won't even build a garage.
There's A LOT of corruption in Wyoming as I'm sure elsewhere also.
We just about built one in Johnson county. At that time the gal assessor was extremely corrupt.
There was an arena owner that had an extremely nice arena, house, property, etc. worth about 10 times our place. She paid taxes similar to what we were paying a year for a tiny cabin and pole barn.
Have friend that borders some of the BB Brooks, He complains of lot of building materials that have blown onto his property. 4x8 sheets of ply wood, metal roofing and siding besides the cardboard and plastic packaging. Oh and the road thru his property that some of the buyers use has gates as, cattle guards blowing with dust and snow, so those people are opening and shutting gates each way when going to town. My opinion there better property around the state and closer to Casper , or the river or mountains out of Casper. Pulse a mortgage and investment over the contract to deed. Some of what I seen of buildings on BB Brooks , some look pretty trashy to me like they were just scabbed together.
1) an HOA or CC&R development is no better or worse than the management/HOA committee activity. Control and enforcement run the gamut from "non-existent to committee members that are on your property with a measuring tape to be sure that your fence meets their specifications, or that the paint on your house is an approved color and of cosmetically correct appearance, or your garbage cans properly hidden from public view by an enclosure or inside a structure". IMO, best to ask the folk now living in the subdivision their take on the HOA activities, code enforcement, road maintenance and plowing in the winter months, etc.
2) Before signing that "contract to deed" with the nice interest rate ... be sure to get a copy of the contract up-front and read it. I've seen more than a few that had substantial pre-payment penalties or other clauses in there that were solely to the benefit of the lender. Even with your "best planning", your circumstances may change before your retirement ... and you may need to cancel this project due to a situation beyond your control.
3) The number you've been quoted for building an arena looks rather low. I've got 2 neighbors, both GC's, who build these types of structures from planning to zoning permits to inspection/completion for occupancy ... and their numbers are closer to $25 psf. They're booked solid for 2024 already and quoting new projects for 2025. And that's just the steel shell of a building, big sliding barn doors or roll-up doors are an extra. Not to mention interior lighting, that's also an additional item.
Good luck with your project.
Oh I absolutely agree! And we did see some people definitely bending the rules of the CCRs, although we saw a lot more of it down at Wild Horse Ranch. I would have loved to talk to some of the neighbors however walking up to their property didn’t seem like the best idea!
Yeah, I a, very much a read every line of every document before signing it type of guy. Closing for our last mortgage took forever because I read literally every word. I did inquire about prepayment penalty initially and they said there is none, I will definitely verify before signing!
Actually your numbers are a relief and right in line with what we are planning on. Looking at a 60x100 so should be in the 150k range! Thanks for all your answers it’s been a huge help!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytempest
I've wanted an indoor or even just a covered arena for a long time. Could care less about heat.
Were blessed to be able to afford one....but I won't for one reason...the TAXES! I'm fairly certain our taxes are pi$$ed away and I refuse to give them more. I won't even build a garage.
There's A LOT of corruption in Wyoming as I'm sure elsewhere also.
We just about built one in Johnson county. At that time the gal assessor was extremely corrupt.
There was an arena owner that had an extremely nice arena, house, property, etc. worth about 10 times our place. She paid taxes similar to what we were paying a year for a tiny cabin and pole barn.
Are you saying just because of the assessed value? Definitely something to consider! I looked up property taxes of over ranches in the area and we were comfortable with it….anything is better then Alaska property taxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jody_wy
Have friend that borders some of the BB Brooks, He complains of lot of building materials that have blown onto his property. 4x8 sheets of ply wood, metal roofing and siding besides the cardboard and plastic packaging. Oh and the road thru his property that some of the buyers use has gates as, cattle guards blowing with dust and snow, so those people are opening and shutting gates each way when going to town. My opinion there better property around the state and closer to Casper , or the river or mountains out of Casper. Pulse a mortgage and investment over the contract to deed. Some of what I seen of buildings on BB Brooks , some look pretty trashy to me like they were just scabbed together.
Interesting….does he live on the northern or eastern portion? I noticed more of the trashy properties appeared to be in the northern part of the ranch. Luckily we are looking at a lot that is very close to the aim entrance so no gates that we saw just a cattle guard. Thank you!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
