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Hi all, I am in the interview process with a small start-up company based in Vancouver metro area. It is for a highly specialized engineering position. Current outlook seems very positive, so I'm expecting an offer of some sort.
I currently live in the metropolitan region of Detroit. I have two young daughters, 7 and 4, and a wife that's still doing her Masters in Finance. Wife and I are both 34. We're currently paying mortgage on a house and have about $500k in savings/investments in various taxable brokerage and retirement accounts.
I currently make $120k/year with about a 15% bonus. Wife interns at a local company and pulls in about $60k/year. My main motivation for the move is moving to a safer country (mostly firearms), a warmer climate, and being next to the ocean on the West coast. I understand taxation is high and the risks for a start-up company is high too. If I do a simple currency conversion, it would be around CAD$185,000 to match my current pre-tax salary. The position offered ranges from CAD150k - 175k. Post-tax (30%) would be around CAD105k - 122k?
We're of course not expecting to also get a 2,500 sqft house with a small yard. The more realistic scenario would be apartment short-term, then townhouse for medium term.
That being said, given that a 1,500 sqft 3bdr apartment is about $3,500/month, I'm just wondering how much of a downgrade in terms of financial liberty would we experience? Given we'd be going there with no financial equity and basically starting from scratch. How much of an offer would the move be a definite no-brainer, how much of an offer would it be a wash financially?
Hi all, I am in the interview process with a small start-up company based in Vancouver metro area. It is for a highly specialized engineering position. Current outlook seems very positive, so I'm expecting an offer of some sort.
I currently live in the metropolitan region of Detroit. I have two young daughters, 7 and 4, and a wife that's still doing her Masters in Finance. Wife and I are both 34. We're currently paying mortgage on a house and have about $500k in savings/investments in various taxable brokerage and retirement accounts.
I currently make $120k/year with about a 15% bonus. Wife interns at a local company and pulls in about $60k/year. My main motivation for the move is moving to a safer country (mostly firearms), a warmer climate, and being next to the ocean on the West coast. I understand taxation is high and the risks for a start-up company is high too. If I do a simple currency conversion, it would be around CAD$185,000 to match my current pre-tax salary. The position offered ranges from CAD150k - 175k. Post-tax (30%) would be around CAD105k - 122k?
We're of course not expecting to also get a 2,500 sqft house with a small yard. The more realistic scenario would be apartment short-term, then townhouse for medium term.
That being said, given that a 1,500 sqft 3bdr apartment is about $3,500/month, I'm just wondering how much of a downgrade in terms of financial liberty would we experience? Given we'd be going there with no financial equity and basically starting from scratch. How much of an offer would the move be a definite no-brainer, how much of an offer would it be a wash financially?
Thank you all for your help!
Is this job offer in Vancouver particularly appealing for you professional career or a from a company you have a particular interest in??
I can give you my general perspective (not a recent one but still applicable) of living and working in Vancouver as a software engineer and later moving to Seattle. In my opinion is not worth it, the West Coast of US would be a much better, wiser choice and you do not have an immigration process in the middle.
Cost of housing (for buyers) in Vancouver is insane and unless you are willing to put a very substantial down payment, I'm afraid your salary is not going to take you very far (sound absurd but this is the way it is). Just to give you a perspective, a friend of mine recently sold a 30 years old 1000 sq/ft condo in North Van (nothing special, no gym, no amenities, just a garage for one car) well over 900K.....townhouse?? I'm afraid 1M is not going to cut it unless is located in a not very desirable area. In addition to that, no tax deductions on your Canadian mortgage.
If you are there for a relatively short stint I would rent which is not particularly more expensive than a comparable American city.
Cost of living minus housing is still higher than the US and the job market for professionals is mediocre to say the least....add to that long, miserable rainy and gloomy winters.
The city setting is gorgeous, Ton of outdoor options, roads are clean (but traffic can be horrific) and public transportation very good (by American standards) but visiting and living are two very different things.
Great Asian food, decent international cuisine. I found the arts, entertainment and social environment dull but that's me, YMMV.
As I said before, your job offer may come from a particularly attractive company or for a niche role/activity you are particularly interested, in that case I would take the plunge with caution, renting and bolting out quickly if you are not happy.
I agree that housing will be for sure the #1 biggest category. My mortgage on our 2,500sqft 3bdr house is only $700/month now. Seems like renting a 1,500 sqft 3bdr apartment in Burnaby will be at least CAD3,500/month.
At the top end of the scale of the potential pay, post tax it would be around CAD10,000/month. So 40 % at the minimum of that will go to housing.
I would be leaving a job at a massive multi-corp with good work/life balance for something with significantly more risk.
I look at the various housing prices in Vancouver, and it just seems insane. My salary would be top 5% of income, but I won't be realistically able to afford a house, even out in Burnaby or New Westminster. It's a completely unsustainable economic model.
I agree that housing will be for sure the #1 biggest category. My mortgage on our 2,500sqft 3bdr house is only $700/month now. Seems like renting a 1,500 sqft 3bdr apartment in Burnaby will be at least CAD3,500/month.
At the top end of the scale of the potential pay, post tax it would be around CAD10,000/month. So 40 % at the minimum of that will go to housing.
I would be leaving a job at a massive multi-corp with good work/life balance for something with significantly more risk.
I look at the various housing prices in Vancouver, and it just seems insane. My salary would be top 5% of income, but I won't be realistically able to afford a house, even out in Burnaby or New Westminster. It's a completely unsustainable economic model.
If this can help there are people, including professionals, leaving Vancouver for cost of living reasons.
Personally, with the additional info you provided (job security, etc..) I would not do it but it is up to you. Does Seattle offer similar jobs in your particular field??
Last edited by saturno_v; 04-03-2024 at 08:39 AM..
For a small start-up without some obvious stability to the company, definite no. I would only do what you're proposing if you are getting an offer from a very large and established firm that you project would be very resilient to recession layoffs etc. You do NOT want to be coming here and having to deal with a job loss.
An extremely solid place for an upper middle class family would cost almost $2 million CAD, or something like 1.5M USD. I am talking about a half duplex in a very desirable neighborhood. Something older and smaller but in a similar category could go down to $1.5 million.
Assuming your wife would be able to find a job even part time, you should comfortably clear 200k CAD and then some. This puts you in the neighborhood of, at an absolute maximum, an 800k CAD mortgage, and that's with stable incomes. If you've got 500K USD or 675K CAD to bring over you could pick up a place up to around $1.2-1.4 million. Those are older townhouses in Vancouver, very livable and comfortable still and plenty of choice across the city.
I wouldn't move here for lifestyle reasons if I have to live in Burnaby, but that's just my opinion. If I'm coming to Vancouver and making a huge sacrifice and effort to do so, I'm living in Vancouver proper where most of the action and municipal/provincial investment is. I live 10 minutes by car or transit to downtown and can access a beach within 15. Can't do that from Burnaby.
You could rent, financially I like it as a way to diversify money out of real estate but I'm just always wary that if I live with family of the potential need to uproot on someone else's whim rather than your own (owner wants to move in, reno, or sell the place).
Like the other poster suggested I would see if I could get a posting in Seattle instead. I would only consider Vancouver if I could get into a huge firm that pays in US dollars onto a team or program area that is not at risk of being cut and is recession resilient. There are plenty of tech workers here making well in excess of 200k Canadian alone (converted from a USD salary) that are doing "decently", which is laughable for that amount of money, but not luxuriously, as in they have a stable housing situation, a car and the ability to go out for drinks and a meal every week and not much more than that. They would have to already have a lot of savings if they can own rather than rent and can afford a nice vacation every year.
The only thing I would contest from the previous poster is that the winters here are long, miserable and gloomy. Maybe to someone who's coming from Florida, Texas or California, but the winters here are fine when you are trading off snowstorms, dusty roads, frost conditions in freaking April and sometimes May that may return as early as September. I've lived across Eastern and Prairie Canada, and from what I can tell the midwest where the OP is from is not much different, and those places have absolutely garbage winters. And sometimes, barely a spring or fall. Vancouver's ground is green and pretty clean year-round and except for a couple of heavy rain weeks, you can jog or cycle almost all year. It's also got a solid mild season from April to October where you can pack away all the winter gear and even spend some time on a patio. You can't say that about anywhere else outside of the province in Canada, or much of midwestern US.
The only thing I would contest from the previous poster is that the winters here are long, miserable and gloomy. Maybe to someone who's coming from Florida, Texas or California, but the winters here are fine when you are trading off snowstorms, dusty roads, frost conditions in freaking April and sometimes May that may return as early as September. I've lived across Eastern and Prairie Canada, and from what I can tell the midwest where the OP is from is not much different, and those places have absolutely garbage winters. And sometimes, barely a spring or fall. Vancouver's ground is green and pretty clean year-round and except for a couple of heavy rain weeks, you can jog or cycle almost all year. It's also got a solid mild season from April to October where you can pack away all the winter gear and even spend some time on a patio. You can't say that about anywhere else outside of the province in Canada, or much of midwestern US.
Oh, I totally agree that the midwest winters are worse....but there are some people (not me) that still prefer them because at least they get more sunny days.
So, yes, less bad than the state where the OP currently live but not desirable regardless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by svelten
Like the other poster suggested I would see if I could get a posting in Seattle instead.
Definitely. I always said that Seattle offers the same lifestyle and environment without Vancouver drawbacks.
Last edited by saturno_v; 04-04-2024 at 01:29 PM..
saturno_v & svelten, thanks for the detailed replies.
The more I think about it, the less the move makes sense. It's utterly ridiculous, but it doesn't seem I can realistically and comfortably survive on CA$175k without taking some severe quality of life cuts.
As to looking at Seattle, I was never really actively out searching for positions on the West Coast in the first place. It's that this opportunity landed on my lap and the job seems to describe my career path so far to a T.
I'll see where the interview process takes me and hope they pay for a trip for myself and the family to go over and feel it for myself. But I am feeling like it is a 90 % "no" for me now.
saturno_v & svelten, thanks for the detailed replies.
I'll see where the interview process takes me and hope they pay for a trip for myself and the family to go over and feel it for myself. But I am feeling like it is a 90 % "no" for me now.
Good choice, a trip would definitely clarify things. Be careful because Vancouver is very good at selling itself visually (especially on a sunny day). Ask all the right questions.
Yeah if the trip consists of a 22 degree C clear sky day along the Stanley Park seawall and then an afternoon trip through the Lion's Gate to the north shore mountains it might have the unintended effect of what you're (or your family) is looking for. I daydream of moving to San Diego all the time too even though it's entirely unfeasible for my situation after a good vacation there.
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