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Tampa, St. Pete and Jax are higher elevated than Miami and southeast Florida. The flooding thing might be true for certain areas of Pinellas county considering it's surrounded by water.
With the same theory that all of Miami will sink, the same can be said for cities with even lower elevations like New Orleans in LA, and Amsterdam and Rotterdam, heck, even half of the Netherlands, but I have yet to hear that those cities will disappear by 2100. Jakarta is another city that's sinking, and that's a world class city in which albeit it may lose it's status of Indonesia's capital, but it will still remain the country's most important city!
Hello! I've been on the Miami forum many times and have left a lot of threads about the continuing growth and evolution of Miami and the rest of South FL. However, I have seen Tampa evolving into FL's second largest commercial and financial center only behind Miami. While Orlando is regarded as "FL's second city", Tampa has a lot more commercial space than Orlando and Tampa's Downton is much more cohesive than Orlando's.
While both cities both sprawl and have bigger land footprints of over 100 sq. ft., there's also authentic neighborhoods such as Ybor City and West Tampa, while Orlando is basically fully sprawled outside of it's downtown and has no ethnic neighborhood that Tampa has. Plus there's the potential of having commuter rail serving the Tampa Bay Area, as well as far away locales such as Bradenton, Lakeland, Spring Hill, and Sarasota), as well as a heavy rail system serving the immediate Tampa Bay Area radiating out of Tampa to Clearwater, St Pete, University, and Brandon.
Probably the only obstacle to Tampa's growth is the lack of a mass transit system (commuter and local), as well as the stupid height limits that can impede it's growth, the latter a result of downtown Tampa and TPA being about 5.5 miles from each other (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/TPA,...l=en&entry=ttu). As a result of the stupid height limits, the project One Tampa, which was supposed to be planned to be the tallest in the Tampa Bay Area, as well as the tallest outside of South FL, was greatly reduced from the planned 630 ft to 492 ft, drastically reducing it's height, as well as available residential units that could've been utilized and could've helped further Tampa's physical growth. I believe that the developers and the city of Tampa should sue the FAA for the height reduction and force the FAA the adopt new flight paths away from downtown Tampa, especially since TPA's two main runways don't intersect anywhere with downtown Tampa.
Finally, I don't really see Tampa really reaching Alpha status according to the GaWC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global..._Network#Alpha), albeit Tampa can compete with Miami for business firms and companies. I look at Miami being in the same vein as Chicago and Los Angeles, two cities that are air, rail, and road hubs with Chicago being a major convention, corporate, economic, and financial center for the Midwest the way Miami does the same for the Southeast, while Tampa seems to be more like a Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Twin Cities type of city, while not as robust as Miami, does provide a lot of urban amenities, in other words, at the most, it can be a Beta type and the same could be said for Orlando.
Plus TPA does have the potential to at least be an air hub (preferably United since Delta used to have a hub in MCO and due to the large Midwestern transplants that live in Tampa Bay), since TPA can expand and modernize it's runways and it's terminals, as well as attract more int'l airlines and flights to places such as Cuba, the Dominican Republic, France, Italy, the Netherlands, and maybe Vietnam, since the Tampa Bay are has the largest concentration of Vietnamese anywhere in FL and outside LA and TX. What's your opinion?
Should have heard the planes jane when we fist moved to Danashores in 1963. Then it was the old air port and our house was in line with the east west runway and planes were like 400ft above the house and back then they had thick black smoke. When a scream plane took off like a 707 is shook the house like a silly mouse. Planes were very loud back then.
Tampa has a lot more commercial space than Orlando and Tampa's Downton is much more cohesive than Orlando's.
More commercial space, how? Are you sure about that?
More cohesive downtown? What do you mean by that? They're quite comparable in size and layout, with Downtown Orlando being quite a bit ahead in terms of walkability and liveliness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34
While both cities both sprawl and have bigger land footprints of over 100 sq. ft., there's also authentic neighborhoods such as Ybor City and West Tampa, while Orlando is basically fully sprawled outside of it's downtown and has no ethnic neighborhood that Tampa has.
Again... What?? You mean... Thornton Park, Ivanhoe Village, Audubon Park, Colonialtown North/South, Baldwin Park, Winter Park, Delaney...
Both are sprawly. Both have "authentic" more dense neighborhoods in their cores outside of Downtown.
Not sure what you mean by "Ethnic Neighborhoods," but I hope you're aware that Orlando has the largest concentration of Asians in the state... Tampa doesn't have anything comparable to "Mills/50" district, which is one of a few Asian districts in Orlando.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34
Probably the only obstacle to Tampa's growth is the lack of a mass transit system (commuter and local), as well as the stupid height limits that can impede it's growth, the latter a result of downtown Tampa and TPA being about 5.5 miles from each other
There is no demand for commuter rail in Tampa. They keep shutting down any semblance of a proposal before it even hits the drawing board. Meanwhile, down the road, Orlando is building it's second commuter rail line.
Not sure why height limits would be a bad thing. Not every city needs a bunch of giant towers. DC is arguably a Top 3 city in the country, and doesn't have any.
We don't need a bunch of Miamis in Florida.
I suggest you pay a visit to both, Tampa AND Orlando, because your entire post was way off.
With the same theory that all of Miami will sink, the same can be said for cities with even lower elevations like New Orleans in LA, and Amsterdam and Rotterdam, heck, even half of the Netherlands, but I have yet to hear that those cities will disappear by 2100. Jakarta is another city that's sinking, and that's a world class city in which albeit it may lose it's status of Indonesia's capital, but it will still remain the country's most important city!
You really need to pay these Florida cities a visit... the streets of Miami flood practically every time it rains. As mentioned by another user, large parts of Pinellas County too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34
Are you implying that you want Miami to lose population and lose it's status as one of America's dense major cities???
As a result of being wedged between The Atlantic Ocean and the Everglades, it has no choice but to build up. Tampa doesn't really have the problem with flooding that Miami doesn't have, and Tampa has over 100 sq. ft. of land compared to Miami's 36, but Miami has utilized each sq. mi. of land for high density because it needs to, not because it wants to. And it has the state's only heavy rail mass transit system (Metrorail) and the state's only publicly funded automated system (Metromover). Tampa has no such system yet.
Tampa can learn how to densify certain areas of the city such as Ybor City, Gas Worx, and West Tampa. Miami won't sink into the ocean, as long as structural and environmental engineers can figure out how to keep Miami above water, which is not a hard task, as well as greatly expand the water and sewage capacity within South FL and FL in general!
The only cities that seem to grow unregulated seems to be Orlando and especially Jville. Tampa has some urban neighborhoods that are fairly dense, and Miami, Ft Lauderdale, and WPB have some dense neighborhoods. .
Well that's news... It's is "not a hard task" to "greatly increase sewage and water capacity," as well as keep an entire city from flooding. You can't be serious...
Also, Orlando isn't growing any more "unregulated" than Tampa. They're both virtually equal in that sense, and both are equally dense in their core neighborhoods, which are roughly the same size. Orlando is essentially a modern, cleaner Tampa.
Hello! I've been on the Miami forum many times and have left a lot of threads about the continuing growth and evolution of Miami and the rest of South FL. However, I have seen Tampa evolving into FL's second largest commercial and financial center only behind Miami. While Orlando is regarded as "FL's second city", Tampa has a lot more commercial space than Orlando and Tampa's Downton is much more cohesive than Orlando's.
While both cities both sprawl and have bigger land footprints of over 100 sq. ft., there's also authentic neighborhoods such as Ybor City and West Tampa, while Orlando is basically fully sprawled outside of it's downtown and has no ethnic neighborhood that Tampa has. Plus there's the potential of having commuter rail serving the Tampa Bay Area, as well as far away locales such as Bradenton, Lakeland, Spring Hill, and Sarasota), as well as a heavy rail system serving the immediate Tampa Bay Area radiating out of Tampa to Clearwater, St Pete, University, and Brandon.
Probably the only obstacle to Tampa's growth is the lack of a mass transit system (commuter and local), as well as the stupid height limits that can impede it's growth, the latter a result of downtown Tampa and TPA being about 5.5 miles from each other (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/TPA,...l=en&entry=ttu). As a result of the stupid height limits, the project One Tampa, which was supposed to be planned to be the tallest in the Tampa Bay Area, as well as the tallest outside of South FL, was greatly reduced from the planned 630 ft to 492 ft, drastically reducing it's height, as well as available residential units that could've been utilized and could've helped further Tampa's physical growth. I believe that the developers and the city of Tampa should sue the FAA for the height reduction and force the FAA the adopt new flight paths away from downtown Tampa, especially since TPA's two main runways don't intersect anywhere with downtown Tampa.
Finally, I don't really see Tampa really reaching Alpha status according to the GaWC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global..._Network#Alpha), albeit Tampa can compete with Miami for business firms and companies. I look at Miami being in the same vein as Chicago and Los Angeles, two cities that are air, rail, and road hubs with Chicago being a major convention, corporate, economic, and financial center for the Midwest the way Miami does the same for the Southeast, while Tampa seems to be more like a Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Twin Cities type of city, while not as robust as Miami, does provide a lot of urban amenities, in other words, at the most, it can be a Beta type and the same could be said for Orlando.
Plus TPA does have the potential to at least be an air hub (preferably United since Delta used to have a hub in MCO and due to the large Midwestern transplants that live in Tampa Bay), since TPA can expand and modernize it's runways and it's terminals, as well as attract more int'l airlines and flights to places such as Cuba, the Dominican Republic, France, Italy, the Netherlands, and maybe Vietnam, since the Tampa Bay are has the largest concentration of Vietnamese anywhere in FL and outside LA and TX. What's your opinion?
Sooooo Tampa could be a world class city IF systemic leadership deficiencies and lack of vision are addressed.
Height reduction for downtown had to do with proximity and runway headings in relation to Peter O Knight, not TPA.
More commercial space, how? Are you sure about that?
More cohesive downtown? What do you mean by that? They're quite comparable in size and layout, with Downtown Orlando being quite a bit ahead in terms of walkability and liveliness.
Again... What?? You mean... Thornton Park, Ivanhoe Village, Audubon Park, Colonialtown North/South, Baldwin Park, Winter Park, Delaney...
Both are sprawly. Both have "authentic" more dense neighborhoods in their cores outside of Downtown.
Not sure what you mean by "Ethnic Neighborhoods," but I hope you're aware that Orlando has the largest concentration of Asians in the state... Tampa doesn't have anything comparable to "Mills/50" district, which is one of a few Asian districts in Orlando.
There is no demand for commuter rail in Tampa. They keep shutting down any semblance of a proposal before it even hits the drawing board. Meanwhile, down the road, Orlando is building it's second commuter rail line.
Not sure why height limits would be a bad thing. Not every city needs a bunch of giant towers. DC is arguably a Top 3 city in the country, and doesn't have any.
We don't need a bunch of Miamis in Florida.
I suggest you pay a visit to both, Tampa AND Orlando, because your entire post was way off.
There was no demand for rail in Orlando either. It was the allure and prestige that came with having rail as an option. The difference between Tampa and Orlando was that the Orlando metro (multiple counties) lobbied for and got what they wanted. Tampa's approach to rail has been lackadaisical at best, akin to a group school project where one member does less than everyone else but still benefits from the hard work of others. That's Tampa, lol.
Sooooo Tampa could be a world class city IF systemic leadership deficiencies and lack of vision are addressed.
Height reduction for downtown had to do with proximity and runway headings in relation to Peter O Knight, not TPA.
I didn't catch Peter O. Knight airport when I made my calculations. If the city leaders were very smart, they'd close that little airport and turn it into a park!!!
More commercial space, how? Are you sure about that?
More cohesive downtown? What do you mean by that? They're quite comparable in size and layout, with Downtown Orlando being quite a bit ahead in terms of walkability and liveliness.
Both cities are over 100 sq. mi. and both cities have sprawl area. What I was referring to as walkable were the neighborhoods of Ybor City, West Tampa, and Downtown, which is practically the center of the Tampa core. Oterh areas such as University CDP, where the USF is located at, is a very dense area and one the densest in the Tampa Bay Area (https://www.city-data.com/forum/64041028-post5.html). Orlando, with the exception of downtown, doesn't really have a truly walkable neighborhood outside of downtown nor is there such a dense part of Orlando that I don't know of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbtoy7891
Again... What?? You mean... Thornton Park, Ivanhoe Village, Audubon Park, Colonialtown North/South, Baldwin Park, Winter Park, Delaney...
Both are sprawly. Both have "authentic" more dense neighborhoods in their cores outside of Downtown.
Not sure what you mean by "Ethnic Neighborhoods," but I hope you're aware that Orlando has the largest concentration of Asians in the state... Tampa doesn't have anything comparable to "Mills/50" district, which is one of a few Asian districts in Orlando.
I didn't come here to be a Tampa Bay expert, but you realize that Tampa is a lot older than Orlando, meaning that it formed a lot of the Italian, Spanish, and Cuban communities in the early 20th century before Orlando was even thought of prior to WDW being built. Also, there's a Greek enclave at Tarpon Springs. It doesn't have the largest Asian nor Latino populations like Miami or Orlando, but the highest concentrations of Vietnamese is found mainly in Pinellas County, due to the shrimp industry in the Gulf Coast. TB is no Houston nor is it New Orleans, but the Vietnamese community is most concentrated in FL's west coast, and FL has the fourth largest Vietnamese population (108,825) only behind CA (815,682), TX (321,106), and slightly below WA (113,790).
There is no demand for commuter rail in Tampa. They keep shutting down any semblance of a proposal before it even hits the drawing board. Meanwhile, down the road, Orlando is building it's second commuter rail line.
As Tampa grows, it may have a greater need for mobility and building highways and expressways will not help Tampa in the long run. Just look at Detroit. In 1940, it was the fourth largest city in the US and in 1950, it boasted a population of over 1.8 M people, now it's a shell of itself because it never diversified it's economy nor did it diversify it's population like many other cities did, and it continues to decline despite Mayor Duggan's best efforts. Tampa has a clean slate and I don't know about you, but the bigger Tampa gets, it can't rely on the bus to constitute mass transit. Even LA, Dallas, and Houston have light rail, so what's stopping Tampa other than the lack of demand for commuter rail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbtoy7891
Not sure why height limits would be a bad thing. Not every city needs a bunch of giant towers. DC is arguably a Top 3 city in the country, and doesn't have any.
We don't need a bunch of Miamis in Florida.
I suggest you pay a visit to both, Tampa AND Orlando, because your entire post was way off.
I've been to both cities, but that was in the past decade. I'd like to go again, just to compare to Miami, but the idea is that DC is a completely different city than Tampa and I'm not saying Tampa needs to look exactly like Miami, but Tampa does need to understand that even with it's vast land area, it can't build low scale and low density outside or downtown, which is why I like the Gas Worx project, since that will densify that area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbtoy7891
You really need to pay these Florida cities a visit... the streets of Miami flood practically every time it rains. As mentioned by another user, large parts of Pinellas County too.
Some parts of Miami are at or below sea level, but not like New Orleans or Amsterdam. If anything, it's a combination of global warming, the ice caps melting, and Miami-Dade County not expanding it's drainage systems. The drainage systems can be expanded through bonds and federal funding, but the first two can't be controlled.
If you've ever watch the recent news, parts of NYC such as lower Manhattan, southern Brooklyn, and the Rockaways have been very prone to flooding. In fact, just about any neighborhood close to water is very prone, so do you suggest that New Yorkers leave New York because the water levels are rising in NYC as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbtoy7891
Well that's news... It's is "not a hard task" to "greatly increase sewage and water capacity," as well as keep an entire city from flooding. You can't be serious...
It's not hard to increase the capacity of Miami's water and sewage capacity. It's a growing city and I can hope that the powers that be do not continue to use the aquifer as the main water source and invest in desalination plants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbtoy7891
Also, Orlando isn't growing any more "unregulated" than Tampa. They're both virtually equal in that sense, and both are equally dense in their core neighborhoods, which are roughly the same size. Orlando is essentially a modern, cleaner Tampa.
Orlando and Tampa city proper are practically the same size and the only difference is that Tampa has older, ethnic neighborhoods, while Orlando is basically a more sprawly city with a lot of lakes. I've never heard of Mills/50 until you told me.
I didn't catch Peter O. Knight airport when I made my calculations. If the city leaders were very smart, they'd close that little airport and turn it into a park!!!
Sooooo Tampa could be a world class city IF systemic leadership deficiencies and lack of vision are addressed.
Seriously, there were talks of doing the same to Albert Whitted in St. Pete years back but it never stuck. It's safe to say that P.O.K. isn't going anywhere.
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You can't be serious...
