Not Fitting In (Mt.Lebanon - Sunset Hills) (Pittsburgh: houses, transfer)
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I have to say I am surprised to hear this from a Mt. Lebanon resident. Pittsburgh (and especially it's suburbs) is not known for being a diverse, international, we-welcome-all-newcomers kind of place, but if you came on this forum a few years back and told people that you were coming from DC and wanted a semi-urban, somewhat diverse and progressive suburb with good schools, I guarantee you would have gotten lots of "Mt. Lebanon" replies.
For reference, I live one town over in Upper St. Clair, a suburb routinely lambasted by Pittsburgh city-dwellers (unfairly, IMHO) as being non-diverse and somewhat snobbish, and yet my kids have several friends of various colors, races, and nationalities, who have had an overall good experience. Some of their parents also have (gasp!) international accents.
I don't know much about the Sunset Hills neighborhood in particular, but in general this seems like the kind of story I'd expect from someplace out in a more rural area. Saddened to hear it coming from somewhere I thought was pretty open-minded and welcoming.
That was our opinion too, when we were looking to buy here. Majority of the people we meet seem friendly, but it ends there. Perhaps people on this forum are more well-travelled and open-minded.
We have friends in Sunset Hills who would be totally shocked by this. The mom is from DC originally and the dad was raised in Brasil as a US expat - his father worked as a geologist for a US firm. They love that part of Mt. Lebo exactly because it is affordable and not as high brow as say Mission Hills. I am not sure what to tell you. This sounds like bad luck, but also something the district should address if brought to their attention. Their son had some issues early on around not fitting in, but that was addressed through the school and he is now a junior at the HS and apparently thriving. I would make some noise with the school administration, i.e. the superintendent or a sympathetic school board member. It's a good district that is very averse to bad publicity. I don't mean that in a bad way. It is one motivator for good districts make themselves better.
Last edited by Charley Barker; 03-27-2019 at 02:39 PM..
Majority of the people we meet seem friendly, but it ends there.
Pittsburgh neighborhoods can be "cliquish" even to people who are not immigrants- there are a lot of people here who have spent their entire lives in their one area and still have all of their friends that they grew up with, and are not really interested in making any new ones. That said, it sounds like what you are experiencing goes beyond that.
My advice (if you do stay where you are) is to try and seek out families who are also "outsiders" like yourself. Not necessarily other immigrants but maybe just people who "immigrated" here from as close as Cleveland or DC. My wife is from DC and both of us have lived in many other cities before, and we tend to find we "fit in" better with others who are not lifelong natives of the area.
It has been a while since my family lived in Mt. Lebanon, but this was not our experience. Two of my children went to Lincoln Elementary. We still have two sets of family in ML and their children all went/are going to Mt. Lebanon schools from K12. We didn't live in Sunset Hills but I always heard good things about that part of Mt. Lebanon.
I would give it time. Regarding the religion issue, while it is a big part of some people's lives, I never remember my three children ever mentioning religion being discussed at school or among their friends. What you will find in Mt. Lebanon and similar areas is that sports are a big deal. I remember spending a lot of time with baseball, softball, and soccer. It is important to get them involved as early as possible to make the social contacts with other kids. My son hated baseball, but I firmly believe it helped him to learn to deal with things that didn't come easy.
Religion definitely is a big part of these kids lives and they let her know. Girls are also in cheerleading. Maybe it's just this batch of kids.
My older one definitely isn't into sports, she likes arts and videogames. I'm thinking of signing her up to some art classes, perhaps she can meet like minded kids. Little one is starting soccer soon. Good idea.
We moved to the Burgh a few years ago. We bought a perfect house, where there are some families with kids (some on our street, most on parallel streets) but they aren't friendly/open to friendship. My kids can't make friends, which was never an issue in a DC suburb where we used to live. I have to say- the topography isn't helping, so hills combined with cars zooming by make it impossible to play outside.
It all started with a terrible incident at our school (Howe), where my child was bullied by a group of kids (4 or 5) on the basis of religion. We are not practicing any religion. Without getting into too much detail, this incident spiralled out of control, and the principal was involved. There were other minor incidents throughout these two school years, pretty much every other day.
My kid tells me church, God, and unicorns are favorite topics of girls in her class. They don't play tag or video games. So she ends up playing with boys. To put it in perspective, there was a time period where pretty much all girls in her class were getting ready to wear heels and a white dress for their ceremonies at a local church and all conversations revolved around this and also...ahem, bras and Jojo Siwa. Parents of these kids that I met are very cliquish and rude. One walked away in the middle of a conversation.
My other child also had some strange encounters at preschool, where a parent of a classmate threw away a note I wrote in order to arrange a playdate (since her son was begging for it) and told him she doesn't want any playdates with my child/other children (not sure of exact words).
Personally, I have noticed that people are a little shocked when they hear my accent. I am a naturalized US citizen, but both of my kids were born here in the US.
I guess my question is are we getting unlucky here or is it just Sunset hills? Would living in Lincoln or Washington Elementary zone be a different experience? If it's something we are doing wrong, why hasn't that been the case before we moved into this highly recommended community of Mt.Lebanon? (we used to live near DC, with high Asian, Hispanic and some African American populations). Can someone recommend a neighborhood anywhere around Pittsburgh (as far away as Cranberry) where kids are just being kids? We would like to stay in Pittsburgh, despite having no luck in the friendship department. Thank you!
Sounds about right. My friends, non-immigrant, live in the same part of Lebo and are having trouble with the school. They are looking to move, perhaps to the city and just go private school if their child doesn’t get into the magnet they want. It is not worth the trouble of paying for Lebo school district if your experience with that school is miserable. I’ve been to some parties with some of the parents, and I can completely understand where the kids get it...they were some of the most uninteresting and intellectually stunted people I had been around in a while.
Sounds about right. My friends, non-immigrant, live in the same part of Lebo and are having trouble with the school. They are looking to move, perhaps to the city and just go private school if their child doesn’t get into the magnet they want. It is not worth the trouble of paying for Lebo school district if your experience with that school is miserable. I’ve been to some parties with some of the parents, and I can completely understand where the kids get it...they were some of the most uninteresting and intellectually stunted people I had been around in a while.
I feel like this ebbs and flows a lot of times. There are "cohorts", that is groups of kids the same age, who can have good experiences and a few years later it could be bad, then shift back to good. It all depends on luck of the draw with the parents and kids around the age of your own child. The same neighborhood could be really good for kids 10 years old but for the 5 year olds, could be awful.
Of course, some areas could be more stable and have less peak and valley than others.
Religion definitely is a big part of these kids lives and they let her know. Girls are also in cheerleading. Maybe it's just this batch of kids.
My older one definitely isn't into sports, she likes arts and videogames. I'm thinking of signing her up to some art classes, perhaps she can meet like minded kids. Little one is starting soccer soon. Good idea.
I live in an area where there is a large church that does a two week summer day camp program for kids. This is a lot of socializing in addition to attending church at least once during the week the rest of the year. It sounds like these girls participate in many of the same activities including church, competitive cheer leading, dance, etc. It is often difficult for kids to break into the cliques that develop from these shared activities.
Our experience was that a high percentage of kids participated in the elementary sports in the community. They were organized by elementary school and if I remember correctly, there were around 4 teams for each grade level for each sport such as boys' and girls' soccer, softball, and baseball. Lacrosse and ice hockey are also very popular in ML.
I feel like this ebbs and flows a lot of times. There are "cohorts", that is groups of kids the same age, who can have good experiences and a few years later it could be bad, then shift back to good. It all depends on luck of the draw with the parents and kids around the age of your own child. The same neighborhood could be really good for kids 10 years old but for the 5 year olds, could be awful.
Of course, some areas could be more stable and have less peak and valley than others.
Oh I agree completely. My friends child gets along great with the older kids in the area, however the kids his age are miserable. It def is pack mentality with the kids and always has been that way, and if you are the kid that doesn’t fit into what the group is into at that moment then it sucks. The parents however seem to have the same behavior, but that is most likely due to them being unable to coexist as a parent and an individual. The group I have associated with are simply alive to fulfill the whims and wishes of their offspring. Maybe the regress to childlike behavior in an effort to be friends with their children rather than parents...who knows, but I do know it is unbearable to be around.
He does do well in the sports he plays, and seems to have found a few good friends there, and also the Scouts. Perhaps that is an option?
I lived in Mt Lebo for a year of so when I was in high school. I made MANY friends, & kept a lot of those friends after I moved.
The larger issue was the parents. It seemed that it was 'fashionable' for the parents to *appear* accepting in public, but at home was another issue entirely.
There was a myriad of issues, religion, my parents were split up, not in the 'right' group/clique, right classes, right clothes, right connections...
I know this because we talked about those kinds of things as teenagers. A LOT. Kids will tell kids the real deal even if it is somewhat hurtful. There were often rules for who they could associate with.
Many of the friends I had, their parents didn't approve of me for one reason or another. We still hung out, but it was more of a 'on the sly'. Meaning we remained friends, but didn't hang out when family was present.
Their kids resented it, but they conformed to it, in front of their parents.
Some of those conformist kids grew up & raised their kids the same way, same neighborhood.
There was a lot of 'control freak' type of stuff from a LOT of my friends parents. A certain type of overbearingness that continues to adulthood is the only way I know how to describe it. Seemed worse for the males: Overbearing mother syndrome, or whatever you call it, was RAMPANT & accepted.
A good example is this:
I was visiting with a close friend (male), years later, when I was almost 20, he was 25.
We were not dating, he was dating my friend, & we were going to meet up with her after work. He didn't ever tell his parents about her. They would not approve. He still lived at home. I was in college part time & waitressing, supporting myself. Different worlds.
I was invited last minute, or so I thought, to join them for dinner. I accepted.
What actually was happening was the most vile form of an interview imaginable.
The asked me questions about my parents divorce, which was several years before, asked about my family pedigree, they even judged my rescue cat which had kittens, of which they adopted one, they were angry with me about it. ??? Then they proceeded to tell me that I was not the type of girl for their son, I was headed for a blue collar life, & that they hoped I understood...But they did not like my influence on their son. I told them I was not dating their son. They then accused me of toying with him...I didn't out my him about dating my friend.
This all took place at the dinner table, over a nice little fondue pot, replete with ribeye & artichoke hearts, in a tone as if we were talking about the weather & as if it were the most normal conversation in the world.
I felt like leaving, but I needed to know how far it was going to go.
It got so weird & kinda Stepford like, I got an education at that dinner.
This was their 25 year old son. If anything, he was the bad influence on me.
If you feel it's not a good fit for you, move. Normally I would say something like don't run away from the problem, but I feel your intuition is correct: The parents are judging you, & excluding your child for whatever reasons they have. Unless you figure out what the issue is & work it out peacefully now, it will only continue & be more difficult as she moves up in grades. You will be the one expected to jump through those hoops.
The cliques are hardcore & that is how it is. The parents teach this to their kids. They also teach 'nasty-nice' to your face, & who know's who, & who has connections...and yes, they will disclude your child for things that mean nothing in real life.
Yes, these issues are every where, but some places it is more clustered. It's not like the city, it's like, well, Mt Lebanon. You either conform, along with your child, & fit in, or not.
By the way, I have nothing against Mt Lebanon. Some people enjoy that type of life. If you fit their mold, it's great. I was so much happier to move back to the city, where it felt like I could breathe & beat to my own drum.
Go with your gut instinct on this one. Only you know what your gut is telling you.
But, trust that instinct, this is why you have it!
Catia - what an ordeal! I think your advice is spot on. Once you are in a cohort with disagreeable characteristics it is hard to move out of it. I think the city might be the answer, but not all neighborhoods. Certainly Regent Square seems to attract a lot of transplants. I hope it can somehow work out for OP in ML especially given the cost (financial, time/effort, emotional) and disruption of moving.
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That was our opinion too, when we were looking to buy here. Majority of the people we meet seem friendly, but it ends there. Perhaps people on this forum are more well-travelled and open-minded.
