Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Mullet Arena was never intended to be permanent. An NHL arena should have seating capacity of around 20K, Mullet Arena seats 5K. Honestly, that kind of meets up with attendance for the most part but the NHL is not going to be happy about one of the leagues have 1/4 the seating capacity as other markets.
The limited attendance is precisely why Mullett Arena should suffice for the foreseeable future. It's not the best location for a pro sports team, but it's definitely better than the previous Glendale site, or any outer suburban area for that matter. I don't see why the Yotes believe they're deserving of a massive new sports/entertainment complex, especially based on how limited their fan base is compared to the Suns, Cards, and DBacks. The team would have a better following if they'd make the playoffs more often, and certainly if they'd have a Stanley or two under their belt. Even so, perhaps there would be better attendance if the team was back in downtown Phoenix like it was initially. Colangelo knew what he was doing when he brought the team here, and where they would play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtAZ
NW Mesa is very central (101/202 interchange) and would be next to the Spring Training stadiums to the south.
Point being: downtown Phoenix and Tempe are the central urban areas of the metro area. NW Mesa is not. Spring Training is a different ball game (pun intended) compared to NHL. The venues for the Suns & DBacks are properly located in the heart of the core city where there's already sufficient infrastructure in place. Bars, clubs, restaurants, and entertainment are within walking distance, so the Suns & DBacks don't need huge entertainment districts of their own, and neither do the Yotes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtAZ
There really isn't any available space downtown for a 3rd arena so that is probably a non-starter.
Actually, there is. The open parking lots and run down buildings to the west of Footprint Center could easily be bulldozed for a new hockey arena, and there would be enough square footage. That would be a perfect location (see the Google Maps link below). All it takes is greater interest and willingness on Phoenix's part, as well as the team & league. Of course, a new arena would still require plenty of capital, but the cost would be significantly less without an entertainment district and all the infrastructure upgrades like the NW Mesa site would require.
I'm curious to see how that manifests itself in practice. Words can be manipulated. Will there be tax subsidies, assistance with infrastructure costs, etc? Of course, these things are common with many business developments, not just arenas and stadiums, that bring jobs and other economic benefits. But it would seem that they are planning on funding essentially all of the cost, and want to avoid the process of ballot approval for funding which was the demise of the Tempe proposal.
If the plan is to finance the entire project on their own, I'm fine with it. There's still plenty of skepticism of how successful this development would be, and would taxpayers still be on the hook if this turns out to be a repeat of the Westgate fiasco (especially the bankruptcy filing)? I want the Coyotes to remain here, but I also want them to be self sufficient & have a better record so that they'll be admired by the nation, instead of looked down on.
The limited attendance is precisely why Mullett Arena should suffice for the foreseeable future. It's not the best location for a pro sports team, but it's definitely better than the previous Glendale site, or any outer suburban area for that matter. I don't see why the Yotes believe they're deserving of a massive new sports/entertainment complex, especially based on how limited their fan base is compared to the Suns, Cards, and DBacks. The team would have a better following if they'd make the playoffs more often, and certainly if they'd have a Stanley or two under their belt. Even so, perhaps there would be better attendance if the team was back in downtown Phoenix like it was initially. Colangelo knew what he was doing when he brought the team here, and where they would play.
As I said, for their attendance, Mullet makes sense. The League, on the other hand, are not going to like the optics and, I am pretty sure, there is something in the ownership contracts about the acceptable Arena capacity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
Point being: downtown Phoenix and Tempe are the central urban areas of the metro area. NW Mesa is not. Spring Training is a different ball game (pun intended) compared to NHL. The venues for the Suns & DBacks are properly located in the heart of the core city where there's already sufficient infrastructure in place. Bars, clubs, restaurants, and entertainment are within walking distance, so the Suns & DBacks don't need huge entertainment districts of their own, and neither do the Yotes.
Point Being: You are talking about a 15 mile difference in distance between Footprint and Fiesta Mall (where I think would be the best location) NW Mesa is pretty darn central for the East Valley and to Jazz's point, the fan base for the Coyotes. Coming from Chandler, I avoid Downtown like the plague. Course I hate being around too many people and congestion so while I understand why some people like it...I have no reason to go down there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
Actually, there is. The open parking lots and run down buildings to the west of Footprint Center could easily be bulldozed for a new hockey arena, and there would be enough square footage. That would be a perfect location (see the Google Maps link below). All it takes is greater interest and willingness on Phoenix's part, as well as the team & league. Of course, a new arena would still require plenty of capital, but the cost would be significantly less without an entertainment district and all the infrastructure upgrades like the NW Mesa site would require.
What you are showing there is the Phoenix Public Works Department. Which would bring up another voter referendum. Which the Coyotes are trying to avoid. I get your point and there are some others to the S/W but, while they may look dilapidated and run down, there are businesses in those "run down" buildings and someone owns the land ($$$$$). It is not like a defunct mall (Fiesta) that probably already has upgraded infrastructure (sewer/electric/fiber), is not making the landlord any money and is just sitting there. Then there are the costs of developing in Phoenix vs. Mesa, I would imagine that DT Phoenix land is going to be a bit more pricey.
I am not saying they shouldn't be downtown, just that for a struggling franchise, it may be too expensive for them to be in Phoenix vs. Mesa (like so many other businesses).
I've already poo-poohed the "fan base" location ad nauseum.
Now I'll start with the wonderful "job creation" malarkey.
Ya gotta be kidding me.
These jobs will get Dave Ramsey's Baby Steppers past Step 1, and nothing more.
Anytime there's tax abatements & subsidies, the rest of us are on the hook.
"Modeling" is a useful tool in these types of ventures. Look at other cities and discover what's been successful. Just as important, what's failed.
I know I sound like a broken record, but look at Detroit.
Kinda nice when I can park in the same spot to go to a hockey game or the hydroplane races.
Three major venues within walking distance of each other, with the Pistons & Red Wings sharing an arena. What a concept, eh?
Checking now on the wait list for youth hockey camp at 'Lil Caesar's Arena. Wondering how many folks refuse to go because it's in DT Motown.
I don't have to check on the numbers of high school football aficionados that make the trek to Ford Field for the state championships. On Thanksgiving weekend, no less.
I've already poo-poohed the "fan base" location ad nauseum.
Now I'll start with the wonderful "job creation" malarkey.
Ya gotta be kidding me.
These jobs will get Dave Ramsey's Baby Steppers past Step 1, and nothing more.
Anytime there's tax abatements & subsidies, the rest of us are on the hook.
"Modeling" is a useful tool in these types of ventures. Look at other cities and discover what's been successful. Just as important, what's failed.
I know I sound like a broken record, but look at Detroit.
Kinda nice when I can park in the same spot to go to a hockey game or the hydroplane races.
Three major venues within walking distance of each other, with the Pistons & Red Wings sharing an arena. What a concept, eh?
Checking now on the wait list for youth hockey camp at 'Lil Caesar's Arena. Wondering how many folks refuse to go because it's in DT Motown.
I don't have to check on the numbers of high school football aficionados that make the trek to Ford Field for the state championships. On Thanksgiving weekend, no less.
You gotta admit, though, that the Ilitch family got a lot of public funding and has not been fully delivering on their part of the LCA arena deal. They promised to develop a lot of the surrounding neighborhoods and businesses, in exchange for receiving over $300 million in taxpayer funding. They may still deliver on their promises, but progress has been slow and transparency lacking. They also got a large subsidy for Comerica Park as well.
I'm from the area myself, too. I do agree that it is nice that all 4 of the major teams play downtown. Detroit has been improving lately but I don't think many believe that the LCA project financial arrangement has worked out as planned.
I've already poo-poohed the "fan base" location ad nauseum.
Now I'll start with the wonderful "job creation" malarkey.
Ya gotta be kidding me.
These jobs will get Dave Ramsey's Baby Steppers past Step 1, and nothing more.
Anytime there's tax abatements & subsidies, the rest of us are on the hook.
"Modeling" is a useful tool in these types of ventures. Look at other cities and discover what's been successful. Just as important, what's failed.
I know I sound like a broken record, but look at Detroit.
Kinda nice when I can park in the same spot to go to a hockey game or the hydroplane races.
Three major venues within walking distance of each other, with the Pistons & Red Wings sharing an arena. What a concept, eh?
Checking now on the wait list for youth hockey camp at 'Lil Caesar's Arena. Wondering how many folks refuse to go because it's in DT Motown.
I don't have to check on the numbers of high school football aficionados that make the trek to Ford Field for the state championships. On Thanksgiving weekend, no less.
There isn't any in Mesa, so far at least. So you can drop that ad nauseam argument for now.
What you are showing there is the Phoenix Public Works Department. Which would bring up another voter referendum. Which the Coyotes are trying to avoid. I get your point and there are some others to the S/W but, while they may look dilapidated and run down, there are businesses in those "run down" buildings and someone owns the land ($$$$$). It is not like a defunct mall (Fiesta) that probably already has upgraded infrastructure (sewer/electric/fiber), is not making the landlord any money and is just sitting there. Then there are the costs of developing in Phoenix vs. Mesa, I would imagine that DT Phoenix land is going to be a bit more pricey.
I am not saying they shouldn't be downtown, just that for a struggling franchise, it may be too expensive for them to be in Phoenix vs. Mesa (like so many other businesses).
I get what you're saying, but it would be a lot less costly if just an arena was built in a location where there's already a decent selection of eateries, entertainment, and transportation options. Since the downtowns of Phoenix & Tempe both fit this description, there's no legitimate reason for the team to have an entertainment district. Main thing to be concerned about is: if this goes through (regardless of the site they choose), it had better be financed through private means all the way.
I get what you're saying, but it would be a lot less costly if just an arena was built in a location where there's already a decent selection of eateries, entertainment, and transportation options. Since the downtowns of Phoenix & Tempe both fit this description, there's no legitimate reason for the team to have an entertainment district. Main thing to be concerned about is: if this goes through (regardless of the site they choose), it had better be financed through private means all the way.
"The Coyotes remain committed to building the first privately funded sports facility in Arizona history and ensuring the Valley as the Club’s permanent home. In addition to this property in Mesa, the Club will continue to explore other potential sites in the East Valley,” -Arizona Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo (August 8th 2023)
The entertainment/apartment/office/etc... aspect is key to privately financing it. It's not having those amenities nearby that's important to the team, it's that the team benefits financially from those things. It's a copy and paste development structure to what the Bucks did in Milwaukee and I believe the Braves did in Atlanta.
The Tempe site was seeking tax abatement to cover potential/expected/estimated costs to cleanup the landfill, if that is/was the true abatement need, then other locations should pencil out financially that do not require this type of cleanup. We'll see...
I don't understand the hatred for going back to the PHOENIX Coyotes. How many people from across this very large state care about the Coyotes? Now is it more a Valley thing where other cities and towns in the Valley are upset? If so, that's still stupid because PHOENIX is the main city in the Valley.
Latest Coyote news...
The Arizona Coyotes said Thursday night they’re committed to win a land auction that could pave the way for the NHL club to remain in the Phoenix area after years of arena uncertainty.
The team hopes to buy the 110-acre (445,154 square meter) plot of land on Northwest corner of Scottsdale Road and the Loop 101 in north Phoenix and build a privately funded arena and entertainment district.
April 1st, 2024: "A group led by a former Arizona Coyotes executive is eyeing Mesa land and legislation changes to potentially bring a professional soccer stadium to the Phoenix area. Both that group and the NHL team denied to Sports Business Journal that there is a connection to the Coyotes’ attempts to build a permanent home arena."
.........Sakiewicz added that Phoenix Rising, a USL Championship team playing in a temporary facility, could also be a potential tenant or partner, and that the venue could also host international matches. The Rising did not respond to a request for comment.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
