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Robert Graves provided the Pelasgian creation myth in his classic The Greek Myths. It answers the age old question of which came first, the chicken or the egg. In his version, Eurynome danced until Ophion appeared and as a result of their union, the Universal Egg was laid out of which all things which exist came. Thus, the egg came first.
Obviously. And it's just as obvious that eggs should be broken on the Big End when eaten.
Personally I voted for the Genesis story. And I want to point out that, since 1950, the Roman Catholic Church (of which I am a member) has accepted that the Big Bang Theory is not in conflict with Genesis. Many mainline Protestant denominations also accept the Big Bang.
I think that traditional creation stories are most rewarding and satisfying when they are read as a reflection of collective human psychologies that produced them, not as a realistic sleuthing for the literal origins of the universe or world. They’re a kind of collective primary process fantasy that speaks to our internal (and eternal) conflicts as human beings. Many creation myths are extremely violent, wherein the world is laid down with the stuff of some slayed and dismembered parental god; I’ve always found that intriguing and fascinating on many levels. Human birth is violent, familial jealousies are violent, tribal wars are very, very violent and mythic in their intensity and raw gore. Wars see an extreme of human cruelty and bloodlust that is unparalleled in other species (with the possible exception of the great apes). Creation myths, told around campfires, incorporate those primal passions, naturally.
The Biblical creation story stands as a Bronze Age anomaly in its orderly and nonviolent conduct. I had a professor whose opinion it was that it was born as a counter-narrative to the Babylonian creation myth. The Jews held captive in Babylonia inverted and countered their captors’ mainstream narratives into their opposites. I believe that is why Eve ended up getting such s bad rap. Apparently, the Babylonian counterpart, named Hawwa (if I’m remembering correctly) was wise and good.
I think that traditional creation stories are most rewarding and satisfying when they are read as a reflection of collective human psychologies that produced them, not as a realistic sleuthing for the literal origins of the universe or world.
Big Bank in effect "throws up its hands" as to the origin, pre-Bang, of the Universe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timaea
They’re a kind of collective primary process fantasy that speaks to our internal (and eternal) conflicts as human beings. Many creation myths are extremely violent, wherein the world is laid down with the stuff of some slayed and dismembered parental god; I’ve always found that intriguing and fascinating on many levels. Human birth is violent, familial jealousies are violent, tribal wars are very, very violent and mythic in their intensity and raw gore. Wars see an extreme of human cruelty and bloodlust that is unparalleled in other species (with the possible exception of the great apes). Creation myths, told around campfires, incorporate those primal passions, naturally.
Bib Bang is violent as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timaea
The Biblical creation story stands as a Bronze Age anomaly in its orderly and nonviolent conduct. I had a professor whose opinion it was that it was born as a counter-narrative to the Babylonian creation myth. The Jews held captive in Babylonia inverted and countered their captors’ mainstream narratives into their opposites. I believe that is why Eve ended up getting such s bad rap. Apparently, the Babylonian counterpart, named Hawwa (if I’m remembering correctly) was wise and good.
I would call parts of the story "violent", i.e. Cain + Abel, and the story of the Flood, albeit probably derived from Gilgamesh.
I don't see why we can't just leave this loose and unsettled. There's much that we can't know and never will never know.
We can have hunches and possible assumptions as the best available currently, and just continue to be observant for more information for fine-tuning. Every day has unknowns, even leaving your home. Don't just stop because you don't have a crystal ball.
Life is much like art. Don't treat it like science, or you'll just be disappointed.
I don't see why we can't just leave this loose and unsettled. There's much that we can't know and never will never know.
We can have hunches and possible assumptions as the best available currently, and just continue to be observant for more information for fine-tuning. Every day has unknowns, even leaving your home. Don't just stop because you don't have a crystal ball.
Life is much like art. Don't treat it like science, or you'll just be disappointed.
That is certainly a useful approach that has a lot to recommend it. My whole point is that Big Bang may well be more accurate than the Biblical stories, Gilgamesh, the Norse Stories etc. but ultimately not that much more informative.
My whole point is that Big Bang may well be more accurate than the Biblical stories, Gilgamesh, the Norse Stories etc. but ultimately not that much more informative.
Quantum physics and astrophysics get so weird that they often read like myths. Physicists assure us that they’re more scientifically accurate, based as they are in mathematical equations, but even the math gets weird and open-ended as we approach stuff like the fractions of the nanosecond before the Big Bang. So I’m not convinced that the Big Bang is not another iteration in an ultimately irrational and unprovable creation myth, adapted to a post-religious worldview.
Sometimes it’s better to just exist in our own little slice of the universe. Trying to solve mysteries beyond our intellectual capacity leads to a dead end of frustration and unanswered questions. Be at peace where you are.
Thank you....I can see you now- siting in the lotus position on you hillside in front of your cave with a contented smirk on your face, at peace with The Universe. Good stuff.
I took Latin in ha skoow for four years from an old spinster teacher. Every Friday was supposed to be Roman Culture Day and every Friday for four years she sarted the class by recitng the beginning of Ovid's Metamorphosis-- "In the beginning all was chaos-- A vast seething confusion....and oh, by the way" and like Casey Stengel (or Kamela Harris) doing an extended interview, she would ramble on, one disjointed thought leading to another and we never got any further with Ovid...Does anybody know how it turns out?
Ms
The Big Bang Theory is based on Hubble's observations that the farther away a galaxy is from us, the faster it seems to be traveling...This is what you'd expect from, say the shrapnel from an exploding grenade-- it all started in one place and upon exploding, the fast moving stuff goes the farthest...
That theory gained a good deal of traction because it fit not only the data, but also the religious narrative...
...The probem is, newer evidence suggests some of the farther away stuff isn't traveling as fast.
In regards "what's an expanding universe expanding into?"-- it isn't. Space & time itself is also expanding. Our psychology of perception & our intuition just doesn't allow us to come to grips with that.
In regards THE Beginning-- most likely there wasn't one. Most likley that, if we were to retrace time, we would merely approach a Time Zero asymptotically without ever being able to reach that zero point.
Tradtional stories all have the gods in one way or another creating the Universe...If so, then where did the gods come from?...Adding the gods into the story just adds one more layer of complexity-- not a good thing when it comes to science. K.I.S.S. is the most elegant form for theories in science.
msgsing has it right...Some things we'll just never know. Best to not even think about...The only more certain way to drive yourself crazy is to think about breathing.
.
Last edited by guidoLaMoto; 03-21-2023 at 03:16 AM..
The Big Bang Theory is based on Hubble's observations that the farther away a galaxy is from us, the faster it seems to be traveling...This is what you'd expect from, say the shrapnel from an exploding grenade-- it all started in one place and upon exploding, the fast moving stuff goes the farthest...
That theory gained a good deal of traction because it fit not only the data, but also the religious narrative...
...The probem is, newer evidence suggests some of the farther away stuff isn't traveling as fast.
In regards "what's an expanding universe expanding into?"-- it isn't. Space & time itself is also expanding. Our psychology of perception & our intuition just doesn't allow us to come to grips with that.
In regards THE Beginning-- most likely there wasn't one. Most likley that, if we were to retrace time, we would merely approach a Time Zero asymptotically without ever being able to reach that zero point.
Tradtional stories all have the gods in one way or another creating the Universe...If so, then where did the gods come from?...Adding the gods into the story just adds one more layer of complexity-- not a good thing when it comes to science. K.I.S.S. is the most elegant form for theories in science.
msgsing has it right...Some things we'll just never know. Best to not even think about...The only more certain way to drive yourself crazy is to think about breathing.
.
Gordon Lightfoot probably sums it up best, in his landmark song, Canadian Railroad Trilogy, "time has no beginning and history has no bounds." No link because that's from memory. Have a listen below:
"So, are areas lying outside the "universe" also part of the "universe"?"
no.
just a multiverse slice.
"Is the "universe" universal?"
not yet.
have to wait
for Universal Studios
to "green light" production.
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Time has no beginning and history has no bounds
