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Out of a total 709 Third class (steerage) passengers no more than 172 survived. or approx 24 %
62 percent of First class passengers survived
41 percent of Second class passengers survived
And Yes the gates were actually locked for a time.
As for enough lifeboats. Arthur Rostron Captain of the "Carpathia" was called to give evidence at a hastily assembled Senate enquiry held the very next day after his ship arrived in New York.
He was asked at one point how many lifeboats did his ship the Carpathia carry..
Twenty he answered
The next question asked was the tonnage of the Carpathia to which he answered 13,500 tons
The Titanic had a gross tonnage of 46,329 tons and the number of lifeboats was also 20 which would accommodate around 1,178 passengers whereas the total number of passengers on board was around 2,209
The Titanic's safety was therefore sacrificed due to the firm belief that she was unsinkable and an adequate number of lifeboats was given only a second thought.
It's no surprise either at the high number of deaths among the steerage passengers. Scrambling to get from bottom to upper deck once the gates were open must have taken a considerable amount of time on a ship the size of the Titanic whereas First Class passengers simply had to leave their cabins and climb aboard the boats
As for the notion that lifeboats would be used for the purpose of ferrying passengers from a sinking ship to a waiting rescue ship one has to only wonder at the mindset. Perhaps they thought that the Atlantic was as full of ships as the Hyde Park Serpentine was as full of kids toy boats on a Sunday afternoon
Last edited by James Austen; 04-30-2024 at 04:58 PM..
"Contrary to the popular interpretation the White Star Line never made any substantive claims that the Titanic was unsinkable - and nobody really talked about the ship's unsinkability until after the event".
Of the around 1,200 Britons on board The Titanic there were only 45 Britons who travelled First class on the vessel, and only 20 survived (44%), with the other Britons either being in the lower class accommodation or being members of the crew who were mainly from Southampton or other parts of the UK.
In reality the gates on the Titanic had nothing to do with the British class system, and were there due to compliance with US immigration laws.
"In accordance with US immigration law, the Titanic had to have gates between the ship’s decks in order to avoid the spread of diseases, but these were not used in cruel ways as seen in the movie. Third-class passengers were in the bowels of the ship and thus did not have direct access to lifeboats, but they were not purposely kept behind gates to avoid getting to the lifeboats, and third-class stewards were reportedly instructed to have passengers put on their lifebelts and go to the deck, but many refused".
There was a misconception around how Titanic’s third-class passengers were treated, however this was a myth as pointed out in testimony supplied during the investigation of the Titanic’s disaster including those of third class passengers, and there was never any evidence to suggest any attempts to keep third-class passengers back or locked away.
Cameron's film also portrayed real life people in a poor light, including First Officer William Murdoch and J. Bruce Ismay, the chairman and managing director of the White Star Line and both were contrary to what was stated at the British inquiry in to the disaster.
In terms of Ismay, "Lord Mersey, who led the British Inquiry Report of 1912 into the loss of the Titanic, concluded that Ismay had helped many other passengers before finding a place for himself on the last lifeboat to leave the starboard side. "Had he not jumped in he would merely have added one more life, namely, his own, to the number of those lost," he said".
As for First Officer William Murdoch, I mention him and the actual truth, in my previous post on this thread, numbered 39 and 40.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC Magazine (2012)
Contrary to the popular interpretation the White Star Line never made any substantive claims that the Titanic was unsinkable - and nobody really talked about the ship's unsinkability until after the event, argues Howells.
One of the most emotive scenes in Cameron's Titanic portrays the third class passengers as being forcibly held below the decks and prevented from reaching the lifeboats. Richard Howells argues that there is no historical evidence to support this.
Gates did exist which barred the third class passengers from the other passengers. But this was not in anticipation of a shipwreck but in compliance with US immigration laws and the feared spread of infectious diseases.
"Under American immigration legislation, immigrants had to be kept separate so that before the Titanic docked in Manhattan, it first stopped at Ellis Island - where the immigrants were taken for health checks and immigration processing," Howells says.
Each class of passengers had access to their own decks and allocated lifeboats - although crucially no lifeboats were stored in the third class sections of the ship.
Third class passengers had to find their way through a maze of corridors and staircases to reach the boat deck. First and second class passengers were most likely to reach the lifeboats as the boat deck was a first and second class promenade.
The British Inquiry Report noted that the Titanic was in compliance with the American immigration law in force at the time - and that allegations that third class passengers were locked below decks were false.
As for the lifeboats, the Titanic actually exceeded the legal requirements for the time in terms of lifeboats, whilst there was no class discrimination when it came to loading passengers onto lifeboats. Once the severity of the situation hit, the priority of the crew was to get as many people as possible, regardless of wealth, off the ship and into lifeboats, starting with the women and children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Top 10 Things Titanic Got Factually Right & Wrong (2023)
#4: There Were Not Enough Lifeboats - True
In the movie, due to the limited number of lifeboats, passengers can be seen scurrying to climb aboard them in an attempt to escape the sinking Titanic. And this is accurate. The Titanic had enough lifeboats to accommodate 1,178 people, which was about one-third of the ship’s overall capacity. But shockingly, this figure actually exceeded the legal requirement. Lifeboats were expected to be used to ferry passengers from a sinking ship to a rescuing ship, meaning that lifeboats could be reused for multiple passengers. Of course, this wasn’t the case with the Titanic. Another tragic fact is that due to the chaotic circumstances, many lifeboats were not filled to capacity, leaving seats empty.
#1: There Was Class Discrimination with the Lifeboats - False
Although there were first, second and third class facilities on board the RMS Titanic, and a wide variety of passengers with different occupations and status, there was no class discrimination when it came to loading passengers onto lifeboats. Once the severity of the situation hit, the priority of the crew was to get as many people as possible, regardless of wealth, off the ship and into lifeboats, starting with the women and children. Also, that scene where third class passengers are locked below deck as a means to take care of them, is absolute nonsense.
Historian Dan Snow and Titanic expert and author Tim Maltin dispel some of the many myths regarding the Titanic in the video below.
At 12.40 minutes they deal with the Third Class Passengers, Gates and Lifeboats.
In reality all Transatlantic passenger ships heading for the US carrying third class immigrants passengers had to have such gates by US law, and the Titanic complied with US law just as other ships did.
In reality the gates were opened for the passengers and the real narrative was nothing like the Hollywood sensationalism, whilst in reality many third class passengers refused to leave because they had all their belongings and savings with them, and wished to remain as a family.
As for various classes of ticket, even today passenger ship generally still have various classes and price deals, and how much you pay will usually effect where your cabin is on the ship, whilst the general crew will always have accommodation in the lower levels away from the passengers.
Youtuber Oceanliner Designs also delves in to the subject of the gates, and gives an analysis of the various gates, most of which were actually never locked.
The movie that keeps getting mentioned was mostly fiction, almost a mockery of the tragedy. Knowing what I know, I hated that movie for all its misconceptions and inaccuracies which misled people into a false mode of thought.
There are some accurate books and movies. I started out with A Night to Remember by Walter Lord, an excellent book for its day, but after divers actually reached the sunken ship many years later, movies came out that shed more light on what really happened. I would recommend those books and movies if anyone wants to know more of the truth.
I'll say one more thing: there were lifeboats but most of them left the ship only partially filled because people refused to get into them. It seemed safer somehow to remain onboard and just get rescued or not even sink, than to climb into a lifeboat and be lowered down by ropes over the side of the ship way down onto the freezing cold sea. Only when it became obvious that there was no hope, did people finally start cramming themselves into the lifeboats. Then there weren't enough left as so many had left with only a few people in them.
There are many stories of brave people, such as the radio man who sent the disaster signal even though he, himself should have been leaving, not sitting and trying to call for help. How many ships heard the calls but wouldn't believe the Titanic was in danger? One ship's radio man turned off the radio for the night and just went to bed--if he had listened he would have known the truth and maybe his ship could have made all the difference. But it was from the Titanic and everyone knew it was unsinkable so it must have just been a joke! Many tragic stories.
Why have gates at all on third class deck? Various excuses were made to justify their existence but the fact remains that rabid class distinction existed in the society of that time.
Imagine the horror and disgust of suddenly being confronted by some eastern European peasant type bound for Ellis Island, New York who had accidentally strayed into first class territory. (Sarcasm)
The gates were locked but not to deny third class passengers access to the lifeboats but for crowd control purposes. By the time they were able to reach upper deck the lifeboats were almost all gone which simply explains why only 24 percent of third class survived
As for Ismay , Chairman and managing director of the White Star Line I can only express disgust.
Captain Smith deserves recognition for doing what a good and true ships's capain does in such a situation. The pressure he was placed under by the White Star owners makes him just another victim of the whole affair
The movie that keeps getting mentioned was mostly fiction, almost a mockery of the tragedy. Knowing what I know, I hated that movie for all its misconceptions and inaccuracies which misled people into a false mode of thought.
There are some accurate books and movies. I started out with A Night to Remember by Walter Lord, an excellent book for its day, but after divers actually reached the sunken ship many years later, movies came out that shed more light on what really happened. I would recommend those books and movies if anyone wants to know more of the truth.
I'll say one more thing: there were lifeboats but most of them left the ship only partially filled because people refused to get into them. It seemed safer somehow to remain onboard and just get rescued or not even sink, than to climb into a lifeboat and be lowered down by ropes over the side of the ship way down onto the freezing cold sea. Only when it became obvious that there was no hope, did people finally start cramming themselves into the lifeboats. Then there weren't enough left as so many had left with only a few people in them.
There are many stories of brave people, such as the radio man who sent the disaster signal even though he, himself should have been leaving, not sitting and trying to call for help. How many ships heard the calls but wouldn't believe the Titanic was in danger? One ship's radio man turned off the radio for the night and just went to bed--if he had listened he would have known the truth and maybe his ship could have made all the difference. But it was from the Titanic and everyone knew it was unsinkable so it must have just been a joke! Many tragic stories.
The movie was just full of pure myths, and the reality is pointed out in the videos I posted above, and include well known historian Dan Snow and Titanic author and expert Tim Maltin.
The books you post 'A Night to Remember' by Walter Lord also sound interesting and will no doubt also help dispel a lot of the myths that seem to have emerged regarding this historic tragic disaster.
Last edited by Brave New World; 05-01-2024 at 12:18 PM..
The Titanic received no less that seven warnings of numerous icebergs in the area but they were ignored. Captain Smith must have received them but did not order the ship's speed to be reduced. The California not very far distant from Titanic also sent messages warning of icebergs but the reply sent from Titanic told them to "shut up, shut up" the reason for that reply being that the telegraph operator was occupied in sending messages elsewhere and these messages had nothing to do with icebergs.
The Titanic's number of passengers far exceeded the number of lifeboats that could accommodate such a number. This only further proves either stupidity or total lack of responsibility on the part of the White Star Line.
However one has too understand the world of 1912.
Two years later Britain's best young men were being slaughtered wholesale in a senseless war with it's former long time ally and friend Germany.
Soldiers suffering from shell shock were often accused of cowardice, court martialed and shot by firing squads and women still denied the vote.
There are always individuals who will find some reason or other to excuse the mistakes and tragedies of history caused through arrogance or indifference, often quoting from books by writers who weren't even born at that time or from documents and "fact finding" produced from "special enquiry panels" which too often result in the otherwise guilty ending up smelling like roses.
Transatlantic crossing were the only way to cross the Atlantic
the ONLY way to cross the atlantic, is 'transatlantic'.
by water or by air and soon, by highway...
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