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The other night I was watching the two-part dramatized account of the war crime trials following the defeat of Nazi Germany in World War II, titled "Nuremberg" and starring Alec Baldwin and Brian Cox, and one scene in it particularly stood out where Hermann Göring (Brian Cox's character) is questioned by the prison psychologist Gustave Gilbert (played by Matt Craven) on the true causation and reasoning for the Government of Nazi Germany to perpetuate a crime as heinous and evil as that of the Final Solution; the murder of all Jews within axis-controlled Europe. Hermann responds to Gilbert, an American, by asking him why his people segregate their own colored citizens despite the fact that African Americans have helped the United States achieve victory in every conflict they had ever fought in up to that point.
He also states however as another counter-argument, as to how if the Nazis were so evil for imposing anti-semetic laws that they did, why did the United States use nuclear weapons to claim the lives of hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives to force a nation into surrender. It definitely caught my attention and got me thinking for quite a bit, not necessarily just because of the argument Göring was making (while bringing this up as well by the way I am just quoting a scene in a movie, and not at all trying to personally criticise the US or Americans) but because of how Japan and the Holocaust were referenced in the same context. It then dawned on me; how did the Japanese, the second-largest contributing Axis power react to the Holocaust in Europe when word got out?
Upon searching this question online, I barely found any results which surprised me as well. So I wondered, did the Japanese ever know about what Germany, their only true ally, was doing in the short time after the allies had made the discoveries in the early months of 1945 until their own surrender later that year in August? If so, what was the reaction? Were stories published in Japanese newspapers and media about the discovery of Germany's death camps in Europe and their mass extermination of Jews and minority groups? Hell were Japanese officials and foreign ministers even aware of what the Germans were doing before almost everyone else did? Who knows. Thought this would be a good topic for discussion.
Last edited by Doughboy1918; 01-05-2024 at 05:29 PM..
The Japanese knew. I've read, that they supported Germany, but there are also stories (and a film I saw on TV long ago) about individual Japanese officials who worked day and night to get Jews out of Europe by giving them visas to Japan. Whether those were immigrant visas or transit visas, I don't recall.
I also read something about how some Japanese officials wanted to appoint Jews to administrative positions in their Manchurian territory, due to their reputation for high intelligence, but there's conflicting information out there on that point.
I'm looking forward to reading more on this thread.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 01-06-2024 at 09:30 AM..
From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.
▪️ 60 to 65 million people died;
▪️ 27 million soviets died;
▪️ 17 million Chinese died;
▪️ The death toll in all the wars combined in the past 300 years was less than WW2;
▪️ 27,000 people died per day for six years;
▪️ The only war in which more civilians were killed than military men. 80% of total - 48 to 53 million;
▪️ The only war where the losers killed 75% of the people;
▪️ Japan killed seven times more people than they lost;
▪️ Japan lost three million people;
▪️ The USA lost 419,000 people, military & civilian;
▪️ Britain lost 450,000, military & civilian;
▪️ 75% of German soldiers were killed by the Soviets - 5 five million;
The other night I was watching the two-part dramatized account of the war crime trials following the defeat of Nazi Germany in World War II, titled "Nuremberg" and starring Alec Baldwin and Brian Cox, and one scene in it particularly stood out where Hermann Göring (Brian Cox's character) is questioned by the prison psychologist Gustave Gilbert (played by Matt Craven) on the true causation and reasoning for the Government of Nazi Germany to perpetuate a crime as heinous and evil as that of the Final Solution; the murder of all Jews within axis-controlled Europe. Hermann responds to Gilbert, an American, by asking him why his people segregate their own colored citizens despite the fact that African Americans have helped the United States achieve victory in every conflict they had ever fought in up to that point.
He also states however as another counter-argument, as to how if the Nazis were so evil for imposing anti-semetic laws that they did, why did the United States use nuclear weapons to claim the lives of hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives to force a nation into surrender. It definitely caught my attention and got me thinking for quite a bit, not necessarily just because of the argument Göring was making (while bringing this up as well by the way I am just quoting a scene in a movie, and not at all trying to personally criticise the US or Americans) but because of how Japan and the Holocaust were referenced in the same context. It then dawned on me; how did the Japanese, the second-largest contributing Axis power react to the Holocaust in Europe when word got out?
Upon searching this question online, I barely found any results which surprised me as well. So I wondered, did the Japanese ever know about what Germany, their only true ally, was doing in the short time after the allies had made the discoveries in the early months of 1945 until their own surrender later that year in August? If so, what was the reaction? Were stories published in Japanese newspapers and media about the discovery of Germany's death camps in Europe and their mass extermination of Jews and minority groups? Hell were Japanese officials and foreign ministers even aware of what the Germans were doing before almost everyone else did? Who knows. Thought this would be a good topic for discussion.
they were in no position to challenge the narrative that emerged after the war. since then, under even the most basic examination, the narrative cannot stand on it's own. it requires heavy-handed censorship and propaganda to survive.
There was an incident in which the Nazis asked the Japanese to round up all the Jews that had escaped to Shanghai, put them in boats, and then sink the boats. The Japanese refused to do it, but did intern the Jewish refugees in camps. It was said that one of the reason they didn't kill the Jews was that they believe the Jews had sway over US public opinion and could help them with the war, but maybe the particular decision maker just didn't want to kill a whole population in such a cold way.
I got this from the book The Last Kings of Shanghai by Jonathan Kaufman.
they were in no position to challenge the narrative that emerged after the war. since then, under even the most basic examination, the narrative cannot stand on it's own. it requires heavy-handed censorship and propaganda to survive.
I think Japan had their own agenda, the creation of a "co-prosperity sphere" or regional domination. Aside from rhetorical support I think the Japanese took very little interest in white vs. white warfare.
There really wasn't really a huge amount of coordination or cooperation between Germany and Japan in WWII. They both had different spheres of influence. The relationship was mostly political and regarded high level strategy, but not operational and certainly not tactical sharing. Thus Japanese were no more aware of the holocaust than the Allied Powers, that is, after the war when the death camps were liberated and the extent of Germans atrocities became known. They were aware of Nazi anti-Semitic actions but did not share that specific predication.
Japan of course was busily engaged with it's own atrocities against other Asians and Allied POWs, which leads me into an interesting comment: During the event now known as the Rape of Nanking where IJA soldiers brutally murdered some 200,000 Chinese men, women, and children, it was a German Nazi Party member that was so disgusted that he tried to stop the killings and sheltered Chinese. He returned to Germany and protested and was subsequently interrogated and imprisoned by the Gestapo.
By the way, I know you know this, but comparing the holocaust to the nuclear bombing of Japan is a false equivalency. The Holocaust, and the atrocities committed by Japan, were acts done during peace, not war. What did Japan and Germany do when a country surrendered? Killed, looted, and enslaved their civilians. What did the Americans do when a country surrendered? Fed the civilians and rebuilt their country.
I think the family hated me simply because I bought a Datsun pick-up truck. The depth of anti-Japanese feeling was amazing. The crimes of the Japanese government did make an impression on America.
Grew up in my teen years in California, with lots of Japanese "friends". That was a difficult time being only 20 years after WWII. Cute Japanese girls that would NOT date me, simply because I was "white".
Their parents would not allow it.
Someday, hopefully we will have the power to forgive. Doubtful, given what is going on in the Middle East again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Davis
Just to give the big picture of WW2:
▪️ 60 to 65 million people died;
▪️ 27 million soviets died;
▪️ 17 million Chinese died;
▪️ The death toll in all the wars combined in the past 300 years was less than WW2;
▪️ 27,000 people died per day for six years;
▪️ The only war in which more civilians were killed than military men. 80% of total - 48 to 53 million;
▪️ The only war where the losers killed 75% of the people;
▪️ Japan killed seven times more people than they lost;
▪️ Japan lost three million people;
▪️ The USA lost 419,000 people, military & civilian;
▪️ Britain lost 450,000, military & civilian;
▪️ 75% of German soldiers were killed by the Soviets - 5 five million;
Best summary of WWII that I have seen.
If you take your bolded statement and throw in the killings by the Soviets, it would give a clearer picture of how evil governments can be.
My parents were held as slaves by the Germans. My father actually preferred being a slave in Germany to living in the Soviet Union. My mother, on the other hand, hated the Germans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
I think Japan had their own agenda, the creation of a "co-prosperity sphere" or regional domination. Aside from rhetorical support I think the Japanese took very little interest in white vs. white warfare.
We always see the world through our "lying eyes". As my mother said, "the only two things wrong with Americans they are incredibly naïve and do not realize how lucky they are".
I wish I had spent less time on history in American schools however, though those A's did help bring up the GPA from all those science classes.
I should have spent more time talking to my parents that could not read or write in any language. They got WWII right, while all those historians focused on the Elites fighting their personal wars.
Yep, the Japanese did NOT care about white on white warfare, except that the longer that went on the better position for the Japanese government.
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