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1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
There apparently were rumors and letters floating about saying that the Day of the Lord had already come...Paul knew and understood what had to happen first and let them know this.
Paul knew and understood that the Day of the Lord would happen in their lifetime and that is very clear in just about every epistle he wrote.
I understand what you are saying but fail to understand your conclusion that Paul believed the second coming would be in the mortal lifetime of his audience. I can't see how your conclusion is supported by anything in your message.
Please enlighten me as to where in those other epistles Paul made that "very clear." In fact, in my post above, I quoted a verse where he made it clear in my opinion that it would not come until an apostasy had taken place.
Yes, I believe that the apostasy was already taking place during Paul's lifetime as evidenced by many of his writings, but he doesn't say how long a period of time that apostasy would take to play out to the point where the devil would be revealed as its source (if that's what it means.) In my opinion the apostasy continued throughout the dark ages. And the glorious second coming of Jesus Christ has not yet taken place many centuries later...
Last edited by justamere10; 09-26-2009 at 12:36 PM..
Who is the man of lawlessness who sets himself up as God and must be revealed and then destroyed by the breath of the Lord's mouth (the Spirit and the Word) and brought to nothing? Isn't that the old man in each of us?
I believe this prophecy in 2 Thess is what must happen to all people in their own time. Some, the firstfruits, undergo this process in the here and now. Some are condemned to a lifetime of deception, remaining in death and refusal to be saved, before their man of lawlessness is destroyed at their appointed time and they, too, receive life.
I understand what you are saying but fail to understand your conclusion that Paul believed the second coming would be in the mortal lifetime of his audience. I can't see how your conclusion is supported by anything in your message.
Please enlighten me as to where in those other epistles Paul made that "very clear." In fact, in my post above, I quoted a verse where he made it clear in my opinion that it would not come until an apostasy had taken place.
Yes, I believe that the apostasy was already taking place during Paul's lifetime as evidenced by many of his writings, but he doesn't say how long a period of time that apostasy would take to play out to the point where the devil would be revealed as its source. In my opinion the apostasy continued throughout the dark ages. And the glorious second coming of Jesus Christ has not yet taken place many centuries later...
How about we go straight to the source:
Mt 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
I could spend all day posting imminency scriptures...you can find and study those on your own. It is better if you see it for yourself.
Who is the man of lawlessness who sets himself up as God and must be revealed and then destroyed by the breath of the Lord's mouth (the Spirit and the Word) and brought to nothing? Isn't that the old man in each of us?
I believe this prophecy in 2 Thess is what must happen to all people in their own time. Some, the firstfruits, undergo this process in the here and now. Some are condemned to a lifetime of deception, remaining in death and refusal to be saved, before their man of lawlessness is destroyed at their appointed time and they, too, receive life.
The man of lawlessness or the "antichrist" as we like to call him was Nero...he was being restrained by Cesaer...but once he came to power all "hell" broke loose, literally. If you want to find more information about what occurred in the first century, I would suggest studying the Works of Josephus. He was a Jew and not a believer in Christ but he does give us extrememly beneficial information regarding the prophecies of Christ and how they were fulfilled.
The man of lawlessness or the "antichrist" as we like to call him was Nero...he was being restrained by Cesaer...but once he came to power all "hell" broke loose, literally. If you want to find more information about what occurred in the first century, I would suggest studying the Works of Josephus. He was a Jew and not a believer in Christ but he does give us extrememly beneficial information regarding the prophecies of Christ and how they were fulfilled.
I was aware that this is what preterists believe. Just, once again, sharing my own thoughts about who the man of lawlessness is.
Mt 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
I could spend all day posting imminency scriptures...you can find and study those on your own. It is better if you see it for yourself.
With respect for your absolute right to interpret scriptures however you want to, and to believe whatever you want to believe, in my opinion you still have not provided a valid verse from the scriptures to support your opinion that Paul believed the glorious second coming of Christ would take place in his time.
You reference Matthew 24: 34. Let's look at that verse in the context of the verses just above it:
Matt. 24: 27-34
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
That chapter as I read it is a prophecy of things that are yet to come on this earth.
It seems clear to me that "this generation" means the generation of mortals who will be on the earth when the sign of the sun and moon being darkened is fulfilled, the sign of the coming of the son of man appears, etc. etc. THEY will be the ones who will live to see the glorious second coming of the Lord.
Verses 32 and 33 plainly state as I see it that the second coming will not happen UNTIL sometime after mortals see those signs (there are many others mentioned elsewhere). When those signs such as the sun being darkened appear, THEN is the time ripe to watch for the second coming. It won't happen before then.
That chapter as I read it is a prophecy of things that are yet to come on this earth.
It seems clear to me that "this generation" means the generation of mortals who will be on the earth when the sign of the sun and moon being darkened is fulfilled, the sign of the coming of the son of man appears, etc. etc. THEY will be the ones who will live to see the glorious second coming of the Lord.
Verses 32 and 33 plainly state as I see it that the second coming will not happen UNTIL sometime after mortals see those signs (there are many others mentioned elsewhere). When those signs such as the sun being darkened appear, THEN is the time ripe to watch for the second coming. It won't happen before then.
That's how I see it.
This is how most futurist twist the scripture when it comes to the definition of "this generation"....everything else is literally going to happen, except the literal statement that Jesus made to His Apostles that some of them would not die before those things happened. I think I would rather believe Jesus.
How do you see this scripture which was fulfilled in 539 BC against Babylon?
9Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
Did these things "literally" happen? Is this not the same type of judgment language that is used in Mt 24?
If you will take your literal blinders off and learn the way the Jews used this type of judgment language and their metaphorical language in general...it would clear your understanding greatly.
This is how most futurist twist the scripture when it comes to the definition of "this generation"....everything else is literally going to happen, except the literal statement that Jesus made to His Apostles that some of them would not die before those things happened. I think I would rather believe Jesus.
How do you see this scripture which was fulfilled in 539 BC against Babylon?
9Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
10For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light.
Did these things "literally" happen? Is this not the same type of judgment language that is used in Mt 24?
If you will take your literal blinders off and learn the way the Jews used this type of judgment language and their metaphorical language in general...it would clear your understanding greatly.
Ok, I'd try to take your advice about the blinders but I just can't remember where I placed them.
Personally I'm not much into creating little boxes, labelling them "preterist" or "futurist" or whatever, and throwing things into them helter skelter thinking that I can then just toss around the label and everyone will clearly understand and maybe even agree with me.
I much prefer to look specifically one at a time at those things that were thrown into the box to judge for myself if in my opinion they are most likely true or not and worth retaining. I too would rather "believe Jesus" but when it comes to what's written in the bible there are just too many people (about 38,000 Christian denominations worth) who "believe Jesus" each in their own way.
Sorry, I'm not a scholar. Were all the lights in the sky darkened in 539 B.C. or was that a prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled? Or is the whole Bible just "metaphorical language" in your opinion, or perhaps only 'metaphorical' if it contradicts something that's been thrown into your box and in that 'metaphorical' context you can safely ignore it?
Last edited by justamere10; 09-26-2009 at 03:28 PM..
"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." Isaiah 13: 9-10
I think that chapter referring to the destruction of Babylon is a type of the destruction of the world that will take place just before and at the Second Coming, a combination of what was to take place during the two events.
(Type: a number of things sharing a particular characteristic, or set of characteristics, that causes them to be regarded as a group, more or less precisely defined or designated; class; category.)
Verse 13 in the same chapter reads: "Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger."
I don't think that the earth was removed out of her place in 539 B.C., but that may happen prior to the Second Coming. This is mere conjecture, but if the earth was knocked out of its orbit and starting hurtling through space it could seem as though the stars were falling. That too (as well as volcanic ash etc.) could make it appear that the sun and the moon were dark.
"And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken." Mark 13: 25
"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." Isaiah 13: 9-10
I think that chapter referring to the destruction of Babylon is a type of the destruction of the world that will take place just before and at the Second Coming, a combination of what was to take place during the two events.
(Type: a number of things sharing a particular characteristic, or set of characteristics, that causes them to be regarded as a group, more or less precisely defined or designated; class; category.)
Verse 13 in the same chapter reads: "Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger."
I don't think that the earth was removed out of her place in 539 B.C., but that may happen prior to the Second Coming. This is mere conjecture, but if the earth was knocked out of its orbit and starting hurtling through space it could seem as though the stars were falling. That too (as well as volcanic ash etc.) could make it appear that the sun and the moon were dark.
"And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken." Mark 13: 25
Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).
“A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.” (rendered in Chilton) Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).
I'm inclined to believe after reading Josephus, that the second coming is past. IMO especially since Josephus was born around 37 AD and so was only in his 30's when the destruction happened. Also he was sent into the city before it was destroyed to mediate between the Romans and his people the Jews.
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