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You are confusing the "plant" with the "fruit" it produces, Katz. Once the "fruit" is "harvested" the plant is no longer needed.
I think I'll let Shana take this one, Mystic. There are a great many Christians who believe in a literal physical resurrection. I'd like to know whether Shana is one of them or not, and only she can tell me.
1) POLYTHEISM, MONOTHEISM AND HENOTHEISM IN ISRAELITE RELIGION
The Jews themselves are aware and teach that the earlier religion of Israel was not monotheistic, but polytheistic. Israel was chastised multiple times for the worship of other Gods. This was not necessarily for belief in other Gods, but for worshipping them instead of and more than Jehovah. It is only the later religion that evolves into a strictly monotheistic religion.
While we typically discuss Judeo-Christian religion in terms of monotheism versus polytheism, a third term, “Henotheism” more accurately described early Israel religion (before modern “orthodox” rabbinic Judaism began).
Henotheism is the recognition that there are other Gods or God-like beings in heaven (such as are discussed in the Dead Sea Scrolls) but the worship of only one God. Thus it was said of Jehovah in Deuteronomy 10:17 “For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome…”. In the case of henotheism, all gods (with a small “g”) were always directed by THE God (with a large “G”).
In this model, all authority and direction came from one God and this God delegated authority and tasks to all other God-like beings. If the henotheistic model is correct, there may be multiple God-like individuals involved (just as the Dead Sea Scrolls describe).
Language introduces problems as well. The words for Angel, both in Greek and in Hebrew are the exact same word as the word for “messenger”. And in fact, angels ARE messengers. One problem is that when the word “angel” is used, one cannot tell, other than by context, if this person is an angel/messenger from heaven or an angel/messenger from a mortal king or another mortal. Occasionally it is confusing.
2) CONFLICTS IN THE BIBLICAL NARRATIVE / CHANGES TO THE ORIGINAL TEXT
IF henotheism is a correct model for Israelite religion, then this may help explain potential textual contradictions and, while no one knows what the earliest texts that became “the bible” said, we do know the current text is not original and this may help partly explain internal contradictions as well.
For example, the Enochian literature describes the prophet Enoch in his vision ascension into heaven, seeing both God the Father and the Son with him. The time period is after Jesus is chosen to be the redeemer and advocate for mankind. The prophet Enoch says: ”I saw the he who precedes time (God the Father). And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. “ 1st Enoch 46:1-6;
The Prophet Isaiah said: “I see more than Moses the prophet.’ Moses said, There is no man who can see the Lord and live.’ But Isaiah has said, ‘I have seen the Lord, and behold I am alive.’ Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah .
The Masoretes who, in the middle ages, created what has become the current official Rabbinic Bible provide a List of Sopheric alterations (sometimes with original readings). Among reasons they altered the original text was to avoid any narrative that would (in their opinion) dishonor God.
For examples, the Manuscripts Orient 1397 and Orient 2349 not only ascribed the changes to the Sopherim, but declared that according to the opinion of some Schools the changes were made by Ezra Himself. (I think this claim simply represents a mechanism to increase credibility that the changes were authorized…)
Example of changes to the text :
Gen 18:22 : IN Genesis 18, the introduction context of the chapter in verse one is “And the Lord appeared unto him [Abraham] in the plains of Mamre…” (vs 1).
The story then follows that three men came to Abraham who bowed to them (vs 2) As talk turns to the subject of Sodom and Gomorrah at least two of the men went toward Sodom. The sentence in verse 22 of the later Jewish massoretic reads And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom, “but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.”
In all three Massoretic Rubrics in the manuscripts Orient 1379, 2349 and 2365, each emphatically states that the original reading was “but the Lord stood yet before Abraham” but that the text was altered. Other lists of changes to the original text such as the ancient List of the Maase Ephod confirms that the text was originally “and the Lord still stood before Abraham”.
The greatest scholar on the Massorah, Ginsberg himself tells us : “With such an emphatic declaration before us, both in the ancient post-biblical records and in the Massorah itself, it seems almost superfluous to point out that it would be most incomprehensible for the redactors of the text to state that they have here altered the text and also to give the original reading when they had in fact done no such thing.”
The context, and the logical continuity of the original narrative is more logical and reasonable and smoothly transitions in the original as compared to the textual alteration. It was the Lord who came down to see and tell Abraham whether the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah had acted in accordance with the bitter cry which went up to heaven. Sometimes, the God in the original text was more personable and different than the God described in the alterations.
I do not think the motives of the Jewish Sopherim were evil. I think they were "wrong" to change the biblical text, but not "evil".
i think those who changed the text of the bible were trying to honor God rather than attempting to corrupt a text.
For example, the phrase to “stand before another” is often a stock phrase denoting a state of inferiority and homage (comp Gen XVIII:8; XLI:16, Deut I:38; XVIII:7 etc) such as when one “stood before” a judge.
Thus, it seemed derogatory to say that the Lord stood before Abraham. Hence in accordance with the Massoretic rules “to remove all indelicate expressions”, this and other phrases were altered by the Sopherim.
At any rate, there are multiple verses that indicate the God of the Old Testament appeared to individuals anciently and this was an acceptable claim in early Judeo-Christian tradition though, as you mentioned, there are contradictions that result in multiple conflicting opinions on this point.
I really like some of your wonderful historical insights Michael Way
Thanks, Clear Lens.
Yes, monotheism as we understand it is pretty much a modern term, the concept of which is not found in the Bible which clearly teaches the existence of other gods, though none are in the same class as Yahweh.
There are in the Hebrew Bible certain 'denial' passages which do not deny the existence of other gods but rather, they are verses which speak of Yahweh's incomparability with the other gods. For instance, in Isaiah 45:5-6 it is said that there is no other besides God. But the same denial language is used for the cities of Babylon (Isaiah 47:8) and Nineveh (Zephaniah 2:15) which both say of themselves, ''I am, and there is no one besides me.'' Neither city is claiming that there are no other cities besides them, but they are claiming that no other cities can compare with them. And so it is with God (Yahweh) stating that no other gods can compare with himself.
Psalm 82 has the Divine Council concept in which Elohim takes his stand in the divine congregation of the elohim. So, God among the gods.
We know from inscriptions that Yahweh himself was believed, at least by some, to have had a wife or consort, and that being the goddess Asherah.
Even in the NT the apostle Paul referred to other gods in 1 Cor. 8:5-6 though for 'us' there is only one God.
So the ancient Hebrews did worship other gods in addition to Yahweh which is why Yahweh is said to have found the Jews to be unfaithful to him.
Yes, monotheism as we understand it is pretty much a modern term, the concept of which is not found in the Bible which clearly teaches the existence of other gods, though none are in the same class as Yahweh.
There are in the Hebrew Bible certain 'denial' passages which do not deny the existence of other gods but rather, they are verses which speak of Yahweh's incomparability with the other gods. For instance, in Isaiah 45:5-6 it is said that there is no other besides God. But the same denial language is used for the cities of Babylon (Isaiah 47:8) and Nineveh (Zephaniah 2:15) which both say of themselves, ''I am, and there is no one besides me.'' Neither city is claiming that there are no other cities besides them, but they are claiming that no other cities can compare with them. And so it is with God (Yahweh) stating that no other gods can compare with himself.
Psalm 82 has the Divine Council concept in which Elohim takes his stand in the divine congregation of the elohim. So, God among the gods.
We know from inscriptions that Yahweh himself was believed, at least by some, to have had a wife or consort, and that being the goddess Asherah.
Even in the NT the apostle Paul referred to other gods in 1 Cor. 8:5-6 though for 'us' there is only one God.
So the ancient Hebrews did worship other gods in addition to Yahweh which is why Yahweh is said to have found the Jews to be unfaithful to him.
Hi Michael Way.
Wow, You are way impressive in such insights. Your historical credibility score just went way up.
You are not only insightful but it is very rare to see someone so familiar with the early religion of Israel before rabbinic Judaism. I don't think I've spoken to a single non-historian in years that is familiar with this history.
Your historical observations remind me so much of Micheal Heisners doctoral Thesis (“The divine council in late Canonical and Canonical second temple Jewish Literature” – Uni of Wisconsin).
If you are not actually referring to Michaels thesis, you should google it (it’s available in pdf) and read it. It parallels your points very closely and got him into a spot of trouble with Liberty University where he lectured since his historical discoveries caused colleagues to assume he was a closet LDS restorationist.
His subsequent denials formed a funny story in his life but he insisted that he had to go where the data led him, or ignore the historical data.
Michael was a wonderfully talented Hebraist and became the editor of Logos Software. He is the first Hebraist who (as far as I am aware) who demonstrated that tzulati (English “beside me”) in Isaiah45:5 was a spacial term instead of an exclusionary term.
Thus, when Isaiah said in 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God beside Me (זוּלָתִ֖י)….” as a spacial term.
Michael demonstrated that this Hebrew word “beside me” (tzulati in Hebrew) did not exclude the existence of other Gods, but merely pointed out that none were “beside him” (i.e. “equal to him”) in power and glory. Jehovah did not share power and position and authority with any other God. Thus the implication of the hebrew is that there were other Gods, but none were equal to Jehovah. (Opposite of what non-hebraists think the verse meant)
While Frank Moore James Cross (of DeVauxs Original Dead Sea Scroll team) came out with the larger and more definitive book on this discovery and on the Heavenly Council in hebrew history, Heisner made this history more famous and accessible to individuals.
I am so very impressed Michael Way. I am sorry that the forum says it is too soon to give you more points.
Genesis 1:26-27 says “And God said, Let us make man according to our image, and according to our likeness; and let them control the fishes of the sea, and the winged creatures of the heaven, and the cattle, and all the earth, and all the reptiles , those crawling upon the earth.
Presumably God could have created the body of man in another shape and appearance but instead, he chose to create the body of Adam in Gods own appearance and similitude.
Why did God create a theomorphic body for Adam?
What is the profound underlying symbolism and lesson regarding man’s nature to be found in God’s having created the body of Adam in his own shape and appearance?
Hi Clear lens. Hope you are doing well.
When God created the universe, He saved the best for last- us. We are the only part of creation that bears His image. Everything He made, He made for us. A very humbling thought.
God created us to bear His image and likeness. Our task in life is to be His image bearer. We are to represent Him to the world. A huge undertaking, yet one we are able to accomplish if we choose to.
Because God created us in His image and likeness, we are able to relate to Him, to have fellowship with Him. What a great gift we have been given!
Sadly, we sin and distort that image. The good news, however, is that we can be reconciled to Him by His grace through our faith.
Wow, You are way impressive in such insights. Your historical credibility score just went way up.
You are not only insightful but it is very rare to see someone so familiar with the early religion of Israel before rabbinic Judaism. I don't think I've spoken to a single non-historian in years that is familiar with this history.
Your historical observations remind me so much of Micheal Heisners doctoral Thesis (“The divine council in late Canonical and Canonical second temple Jewish Literature” – Uni of Wisconsin).
If you are not actually referring to Michaels thesis, you should google it (it’s available in pdf) and read it. It parallels your points very closely and got him into a spot of trouble with Liberty University where he lectured since his historical discoveries caused colleagues to assume he was a closet LDS restorationist.
His subsequent denials formed a funny story in his life but he insisted that he had to go where the data led him, or ignore the historical data.
Michael was a wonderfully talented Hebraist and became the editor of Logos Software. He is the first Hebraist who (as far as I am aware) who demonstrated that tzulati (English “beside me”) in Isaiah45:5 was a spacial term instead of an exclusionary term.
Thus, when Isaiah said in 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God beside Me (זוּלָתִ֖י)….” as a spacial term.
Michael demonstrated that this Hebrew word “beside me” (tzulati in Hebrew) did not exclude the existence of other Gods, but merely pointed out that none were “beside him” (i.e. “equal to him”) in power and glory. Jehovah did not share power and position and authority with any other God. Thus the implication of the hebrew is that there were other Gods, but none were equal to Jehovah. (Opposite of what non-hebraists think the verse meant)
While Frank Moore James Cross (of DeVauxs Original Dead Sea Scroll team) came out with the larger and more definitive book on this discovery and on the Heavenly Council in hebrew history, Heisner made this history more famous and accessible to individuals.
I am so very impressed Michael Way. I am sorry that the forum says it is too soon to give you more points.
Michael Heiser is who I learned from what I know about the subject. I've listened to many of his lectures on YouTube and have most of his books. His death was a great loss to the academic community.
Our greatest importance has always been our spirit, which drives our lives. It can be for good/positive or evil/negative, or anything in-between. Our bodies have never been of key importance, and they're of course temporary as well.
Mystic had it correct early on when he mentioned that our spirit is what was/is in God's image, not our bodies.
Actually, within 2nd Temple period Judaism there was a belief based upon certain verses in the Hebrew Bible which indicated a binitarian view of God. This view came to be referred to as 'Two powers in heaven.' While the view came to be regarded by the Jews as a heresy by the 2nd century AD, prior to that time it was a legitimate belief within 2nd Temple Judaism. The Jewish scholar, Alan F. Segal wrote a book, based upon one of his lectures, called 'Two Powers in Heaven.' He wrote from the standpoint of this being a heresy since he himself was a Jew.
You mentioned the 'Angel of the Lord', and indeed the Angel of the Lord is presented both as Yahweh and as distinct from Yahweh, indicating a duality to God. Another example is Genesis 19:24 having Yahweh raining down fire and brimstone from Yahweh out of heaven - Two Yahwehs?- or two distinct 'persons' who are both Yahweh.
The Trinitarian view of God does have its roots in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament. The New Testament expands upon the binitarian view of God presented in the Old Testament.
The Bible does contradict itself since the Bible is multivocal with the various biblical writers expressing different ideas about God. For instance, no has seen God (John 1:18), yet God was seen by certain people (various verses in the Old Testament such as Exodus 24:10-11 for one example).
I wonder if this verse would mean that no one has seen God face-to-face, while other parts of Scripture seem to clearly say that He's revealed parts of image to some people.
I'm not sure if even Jesus would look exactly like God, being that He was descended from mankind, but I believe our bodies are modeled after the physicality of the Father.
I think I'll let Shana take this one, Mystic. There are a great many Christians who believe in a literal physical resurrection. I'd like to know whether Shana is one of them or not, and only she can tell me.
The bible says -
Quote:
Gospel of Luke 24
1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came unto the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. 3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
Quote:
Luke 24:39,
See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have”
Quote:
John 2:19
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
Quote:
1 Cor. 15:
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
Now, I truly believe that Christ and his body rose from the dead. I believe that the Apostles saw Christ's body with the wounds from the crucifixion.
Quote:
John20:24. But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Obviously, if Thomas put his fingers into wounds from the crucifixion and the sword wounds on Christ's side, so yeah, Jesus body was literally raise up from the dead.
Is Christ still in his body? No. Christians believe that after 40 days, Christ's body ascended into Heaven -
The Feast of the Ascension of Jesus Christ commemorates the Christian belief of the bodily Ascension of Jesus into Heaven. It is one of the ecumenical feasts of Christian churches. This year, it's on May 9th - two days away.
Quote:
Acts 1:3
to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many [a]infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
Quote:
Luke 24:50
And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. 51 Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God.
Quote:
Mark 16:19
Christ Ascends to God’s Right Hand
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
Now, I truly believe that Christ and his body rose from the dead. I believe that the Apostles saw Christ's body with the wounds from the crucifixion.
We agree on this.
Quote:
Is Christ still in his body? No. Christians believe that after 40 days, Christ's body ascended into Heaven -
This sounds contradictory, YG. Do you believe Christ is Heaven with His resurrected body or not?
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There are a great many Christians who believe in a literal physical resurrection. I'd like to know whether Shana is one of them or not, and only she can tell me.
