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sunnyandcloudydays~So you think the SE Line will take 7 years? I was hoping it would happen sooner. Seeing as how Thornton has little room to build out, it is hard for us to attract new business here. Except bars and barber/beauty shops, at one time there were three bars in Thornton and it's a very small town! There are finally some new businesses going in, but it was pretty dead for awhile. It is my hope that the train will increase my declining property value, by making the beautiful homes here more attractive to people who are looking to live in a single family home w/yard and mature trees, within walking distance of a quaint downtown shopping district (yet to come) and a short hop onto a downtown train. The fact that the SE Line will go into LaSalle Street Station (the financial district) will make it more attractive for some everyday commuters than the existing Metra line, which goes to Millenium Station, depending on where in Chicago they work. I have no doubt that there will be demand for both lines, and that public transportation is the wave of the future.
The firms that make money doing the construction of parking lots and the ridiculously overbuilt "stations" (typically staffed only a few hours week...) are all HUGE contributors to the stste legislators.
Even worse darned near all the "transportation consulting" firms are ALSO registered lobbyists -- for them to keep their firms runnings they basically are bribing the legislators to continually EXPAND transportation EVEN IF THAT EXPANSION will ultimately serve to WEAKEN the financial resiliency of Metra!
The fact is only a few of the rail corridors have the right mix of workers and densities that allow lines to operate without masssive subsidies.
When decisions are made by pork barreling law makers that go against policies of fiscal restraint and instead enrich the donors that keep them in office you get the situation that Illinois is in -- a stste unable to pay its bills even with newly raised tax rates and continuing to listen to labor unions and other selfish interests that assume some magical bailout will keep the shell game running.
People that support commuter rail in areas where it is appropriate and not overly dependent on subsidies should speak out against the dishonest practices of lobbyists/ consulting firms and the entrenched construction interests. This expansion will endanger existing rail service. It has the potential to destroy commuter rail just as the CTA has squandered it's resources and now serves less people less well than it did when it was more tightly managed...
Sad reality is that towns without a "heritage" of commuter rail service are unlikely to benefit from "infill" service.
Towns that right now are not attractive to downtown workers will not become more so JUST BECAUSE of expensive new rail stations. The sort of comprehensive efforts to IMPROVE SCHOOLS, clean up crummy apartment belts, crack down on criminals, upgrade housing options, create more upscale amenities and such are unlikely to succeed in the "south east " corridor because of POLITICS -- the low income natural constituency of the southeast side political forces would be diluted. The long time power brokers do not to loose their organized labor base or minorities that can be counted on to vote for who they have told. A better educated, better paid class of workers in downtown white collar jobs would not put up with the shaningans of the past. No politician will knowingly sow the seeds of their own demise...
Sorry if that does not give much hope to property values "turning around" but that is how I see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen2323
I would be shocked to see this project ever actually move forward. Unless the peotone airport is going forward. The new service would mostly benefit expanding rural suburbs in far south will county such as crete, monee, beecher, peotone, and farming communities far out that way. And towns in northwest indiana by locating a couple of stations further east. Not so much the south suburbs. Because, majority of the south suburbs already have convenient access to the metra electric line that runs all of the way south to university park in will county. The new line will just give some more suburbs that it passes through there own metra stations, but there are already metra electric stations close to all of these suburbs. Why not just improve service and upgrade the nearby stations for the metra electric line?
Last edited by chet everett; 05-08-2011 at 08:00 AM..
The firms that make money doing the construction of parking lots and the ridiculously overbuilt "stations" (typically staffed only a few hours week...) are all HUGE contributors to the stste legislators.
Even worse darned near all the "transportation consulting" firms are ALSO registered lobbyists -- for them to keep their firms runnings they basically are bribing the legislators to continually EXPAND transportation EVEN IF THAT EXPANSION will ultimately serve to WEAKEN the financial resiliency of Metra!
The fact is only a few of the rail corridors have the right mix of workers and densities that allow lines to operate without masssive subsidies.
When decisions are made by pork barreling law makers that go against policies of fiscal restraint and instead enrich the donors that keep them in office you get the situation that Illinois is in -- a stste unable to pay its bills even with newly raised tax rates and continuing to listen to labor unions and other selfish interests that assume some magical bailout will keep the shell game running.
Sorry if that does not give much hope to property values "turning around" but that is how I see it.
Chet, you make a decent point that I also agree in part with. In my opinion none of the proposals are absolutely needed. But the fact of the matter is there are four new proposed metra lines for the chicagoland area. Only one of these public works projects is in the south suburbs. There is a new metra line proposal to connect many of the outlying far western and southwestern suburbs together. Such as joliet, naperville, plainfield, aurora, spaulding, and rosemont. It's basically a half circle that ends at ohare and joliet in the other direction. There is a proposal to expand metra service all the way out past woodstock to harvard. And a proposal to expand service west all of the way to elburn. Out of all 4 of the current proposals the south suburban line may be the most practical one in my opinion.
Not saying that any of them are abosolutely needed. But there are areas that don't have nearby service in northwest indiana, far eastern suburbs such as lynwood, lansing, and the far will county rural suburbs around crete. Those areas have grown in population. There will be some infill of stations closer in that already have nearby metra electric access. Which kind of appears unneccesary. But, prarie girl raised a good point that the downtown station that this line will be ending at is the la salle st station. Which is different from the metra electric that ends on the other side of downtown at millenium station. So it may be more convenient for some riders and will add another entirely different public transit option to the area.
sunnyandcloudydays~So you think the SE Line will take 7 years? I was hoping it would happen sooner. Seeing as how Thornton has little room to build out, it is hard for us to attract new business here. Except bars and barber/beauty shops, at one time there were three bars in Thornton and it's a very small town! There are finally some new businesses going in, but it was pretty dead for awhile. It is my hope that the train will increase my declining property value, by making the beautiful homes here more attractive to people who are looking to live in a single family home w/yard and mature trees, within walking distance of a quaint downtown shopping district (yet to come) and a short hop onto a downtown train. The fact that the SE Line will go into LaSalle Street Station (the financial district) will make it more attractive for some everyday commuters than the existing Metra line, which goes to Millenium Station, depending on where in Chicago they work. I have no doubt that there will be demand for both lines, and that public transportation is the wave of the future.
I think the biggest issues causing declining property values in the south suburbs are two fold. One is prices are declining everywhere so there is overall momentum of price decline. Foreclosures are in abundant supply in the southern suburbs do to the huge price declines causing more homeowners to be underwater. Foreclosures are being sold at huge discounts and practically being given away in even middle income southern suburbs. Predatory and inappropriate lending practices toward minority homeowners mainly caused the forecloser issue. Inflating home prices to unrealistic values and eventually causing them to crash when all of the financing dried up. Currently it is much more difficult to get financing, more cash is required, and the current home prices reflect this. Which I think is a good thing. In my opinion home prices in the southern suburbs are more realistic now when you factor in the the sky high property taxes in the southern suburbs into the overall home affordability equation. I feel that long term the current home price declines in the southern suburbs to more realistic prices will contribute to current homebuyers having greater longterm equity in there homes, and more sustainable longterm home ownership.
And number two, the area demographics are changing which has added to the property value decline of most south suburbs in an already difficult housing market. In some south suburbs maybe less than 25 percent of current home buyers are white, but over 60 percent of the homes are currently owned by white homeowners. This is mainly caused by less demand from whites not so much more demand from minorities. So black and minority homebuyers now make up a larger market share of current homebuyers because of the absense of a larger number of white homebuyers. It creates an extra weak housing market in the south suburbs that current homebuyers are able to get a considerable discount for buying into. There is a supply/demand inbalance causing a housing glut and home prices are currently being discounted unbelievably in the south suburbs. This will continue until the ratio of homeowners looking to sell (whites, black, hispanic, etc.) is even with the ratio of homebuyers looking to buy. Some suburbs will come to a balance quicker than others.
Last edited by allen2323; 05-08-2011 at 10:58 AM..
allen~NWI already has the South Shore commuter rail, the article you linked to discussed expanding it vs IL building the Metra SE Line. Good point in there that whoever expands their line first, puts a kibosh on the other one going forward. Show me where infill of stations is anticipated. Is there?
Chet~Have you ever commuted via Metra? Most of the suburban stations have been recently upgraded, they're not overbuilt unless you consider heat in winter to be unnecessary. You don't need staff at all at the stations, if the ticket machines are serviced regularly. BTW The Metra SE Line already has stations at the last three proposed stops (Pullman, Gresham, 35th Street). Pullman is where the line intersects existing service. And it will connect far south-east suburban areas to La Salle Street Station in Chicago, not the SE side of Chicago, two entirely different regions. There are already low crime rates, and very nice houses, in Thornton.
I agree that the schools NEED IMPROVEMENT. But don't you agree that accessibility to public transportation factors into desirability of a neighborhood? That's why I lived in Riverdale, once upon a time. I would NOT live there now, so I get the point you're trying to make.
I personally think that all of the suburbs need to have Metra service to connect them to Chicago and to each other. When you're paying $4.30+ a gallon of gas how can it not be so? I don't think it will get done without numbers to support ridership, can't believe people will allow that to happen.
Towns that right now are not attractive to downtown workers will not become more so JUST BECAUSE of expensive new rail stations. The sort of comprehensive efforts to IMPROVE SCHOOLS, clean up crummy apartment belts, crack down on criminals, upgrade housing options, create more upscale amenities and such are unlikely to succeed in the "south east " corridor because of POLITICS -- the low income natural constituency of the southeast side political forces would be diluted. The long time power brokers do not to loose their organized labor base or minorities that can be counted on to vote for who they have told. A better educated, better paid class of workers in downtown white collar jobs would not put up with the shaningans of the past. No politician will knowingly sow the seeds of their own demise...
Sorry if that does not give much hope to property values "turning around" but that is how I see it.
Without a doubt, some suburbs would totally benefit from having an in town metra station. South holland for example. South holland already has a sizeable population of residents who work downtown and in the city. In my opinion having a metra station would put south holland on par with other solidly middle class suburbs such as homewood. South holland is already a great town and an in town metra station would go a long way to making south holland an even better destination for professionals living in the south suburbs. The far south will county upper middle class suburbs such as crete would also totally benefit from having a metra station which would most likely be a complete game changer in attracting more professionals to that area. Again already a very nice area. I live in a upper middle class southern suburb with a conveniant metra electric station. And I can tell you that the parking lots to the metra stations around my area are pretty full during the week days. I feel that if there was no metra service here this area would not be in as good of shape as it currently is. So I can sympathise with certain middle income southeast and far south will county rural suburbs not having metra access and wanting it.
As far as the schools go. I have yet to here an unbiased discussion about the actual performance of the minority students who currently account for the majority of students attending most of these schools in middle income south suburban areas. And particularly there current academic performance in relation to and in comparison to minority students in other suburban areas. Such as the western suburbs. Because in many cases the performance of these minorities in south suburban schools are outperforming minorities in some of the supposedly better western suburban schools. For example, rich central high school which has a 98 percent plus african american student body. It's african american student body makes AYP at higher rates then the african americans attending hinsdale south in affluent west suburban darien.
Last edited by allen2323; 05-08-2011 at 12:17 PM..
wow allen~where do I begin? Foreclosures are in abundant supply all over, not just in the south suburbs. Inappropriate lending practices did greatly contribute to the amount of foreclosures, but predatory lending practices to minorities? What are your sources? Show me evidence of inflated home prices, I don't think that was the case in the south suburban area. I think job loss was the single biggest economic factor that contributed to people (of all races) losing their ability to be self-sustaining. I know quite a few white homeowners who are in foreclosure, are one step away from foreclosure, or barely escaped so far, including me. The facts are, in order to qualify for a mortgage, you need to have a job. If you lose your job and can't find another one, eventually you'll lose your home. Most buyers do not care who they are buying from. If by "changing demographics" you mean more blacks, why should that by itself contribute to declining property values? Unless you mean that lower income minorities make an area less desirable. That is a different topic altogether. I am so frustrated that you bring this racial debate into every thread that mentions anything to do with the south suburban area. Please stay on topic here!
wow allen~where do I begin? Foreclosures are in abundant supply all over, not just in the south suburbs. Inappropriate lending practices did greatly contribute to the amount of foreclosures, but predatory lending practices to minorities? What are your sources? Show me evidence of inflated home prices, I don't think that was the case in the south suburban area. I think job loss was the single biggest economic factor that contributed to people (of all races) losing their ability to be self-sustaining. I know quite a few white homeowners who are in foreclosure, are one step away from foreclosure, or barely escaped so far, including me. The facts are, in order to qualify for a mortgage, you need to have a job. If you lose your job and can't find another one, eventually you'll lose your home. Most buyers do not care who they are buying from. If by "changing demographics" you mean more blacks, why should that by itself contribute to declining property values? Unless you mean that lower income minorities make an area less desirable. That is a different topic altogether. I am so frustrated that you bring this racial debate into every thread that mentions anything to do with the south suburban area. Please stay on topic here!
I think it is quite obvious that overall school performance, foreclosure rates, and property values have a direct link to the changing demographics in the south suburbs. Why sugar coat the issue? You have to be blind not to see it. Instead of attempting to avoid the real key issue. Why not just acknowledge it? I just think not acknowledging the racial demographic difference and pretending that it has no affect and doesn't make the south suburbs diferent from other suburban areas in any way, is just as naive as being racially bias towards minority areas. As good intentioned as you may be in ignoring the effects of racial change in the southern suburbs.
Last edited by allen2323; 05-08-2011 at 12:36 PM..
"For example, rich central high school which has a 98 percent plus african american student body. It's african american student body makes AYP at higher rates then the african americans attending hinsdale south in affluent west suburban darien."
I think you're answering your own question, kids learn best in an environment where they are comfortable. Maybe the black kids at Rich Central would not do as well in Hinsdale South because they would be distracted by non-educational concerns. I know it's not politically correct to say so, but don't most people feel more comfortable where they can let their hair down?
"For example, rich central high school which has a 98 percent plus african american student body. It's african american student body makes AYP at higher rates then the african americans attending hinsdale south in affluent west suburban darien."
I think you're answering your own question, kids learn best in an environment where they are comfortable. Maybe the black kids at Rich Central would not do as well in Hinsdale South because they would be distracted by non-educational concerns. I know it's not politically correct to say so, but don't most people feel more comfortable where they can let their hair down?
That's one way of putting it. I think the reality is african american students are seriously underperforming at both schools. The point I was making was, they are underperforming even worse at hinsdale south located in the affluent predominantly white suburb of darien in the western suburbs. And doing somewhat better at rich central which is 98 percent plus african american and supposedly not a good school that provides substandard education. When in fact it's results aren't any worse than hinsdale south when comparing the student body of south suburban rich central.
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Why not just expand existing service?? POLITICS!
