Why are so few people attracted to Zen? (quote, believe, reincarnation)

[stephenMM]

I've been practicing Zen for over 30 years at home and in probably two dozen zendos across the US and Hawaiian Islands. Compared to Tibetan, which has many, many types of disciplines, Zen is very simple. Sitting meditation, walking meditation, the occasional dharma study/talk, and chanting (at some centers).

Is it the discipline that is required? There are no beliefs in Zen to lean on, the core practice is sitting meditation. One needs to be self motivated for that. Is it the books that are written about Zen? Writing about Zen is like trying to trap the air with your hands. Maybe you can sorta do it, but it's a poor way to go about it as Zen is about an experience, not words. It really doesn't matter what Dogen or Thich Nhat Hann wrote because none of that can help you. Zen comes from the enlightenment experience of meditation. We have to see into our own true nature and that's a personal thing.

Is it about money? Not once have I seen a Zen Center that had a mandatory charge for anything other than a retreat where food and lodging were needed. There may occasionally be suggested donations, but no one is ever turned away for lack of funds.

I blame the Zen books, but that's just a guess. Many are written by people who don't seem to have a good grasp of the problem, and there's a tendency to have too much focus on koans, which intentionally do not make any sense logically and are seldom used in Zen centers anyway. If anyone has ever been to a Zen center, the simplicity and straight forward path is clearly right in front of you. There are no mysterious riddles posed as wisdom. There's just sitting and walking meditation, sometimes chanting, or a dharma talk. That's it. So I'm not sure why there are so few Zen centers in America, and why they are generally so sparsely attended when you do find one. I currently live in a city of around 200,000 people and there is no Zen center at all. There is only one minimally Buddhist place where they do a casual, stripped down Zen sit once a week w/ no teacher, and it usually has 3 or 4 attendees. That's 4 people out of over 200,000.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by stephenMM

I've been practicing Zen for over 30 years at home and in probably two dozen zendos across the US and Hawaiian Islands. Compared to Tibetan, which has many, many types of disciplines, Zen is very simple. Sitting meditation, walking meditation, the occasional dharma study/talk, and chanting (at some centers).

Is it the discipline that is required? There are no beliefs in Zen to lean on, the core practice is sitting meditation. One needs to be self motivated for that. Is it the books that are written about Zen? Writing about Zen is like trying to trap the air with your hands. Maybe you can sorta do it, but it's a poor way to go about it as Zen is about an experience, not words. It really doesn't matter what Dogen or Thich Nhat Hann wrote because none of that can help you. Zen comes from the enlightenment experience of meditation. We have to see into our own true nature and that's a personal thing.

Is it about money? Not once have I seen a Zen Center that had a mandatory charge for anything other than a retreat where food and lodging were needed. There may occasionally be suggested donations, but no one is ever turned away for lack of funds.

I blame the Zen books, but that's just a guess. Many are written by people who don't seem to have a good grasp of the problem, and there's a tendency to have too much focus on koans, which intentionally do not make any sense logically and are seldom used in Zen centers anyway. If anyone has ever been to a Zen center, the simplicity and straight forward path is clearly right in front of you. There are no mysterious riddles posed as wisdom. There's just sitting and walking meditation, sometimes chanting, or a dharma talk. That's it. So I'm not sure why there are so few Zen centers in America, and why they are generally so sparsely attended when you do find one. I currently live in a city of around 200,000 people and there is no Zen center at all. There is only one minimally Buddhist place where they do a casual, stripped down Zen sit once a week w/ no teacher, and it usually has 3 or 4 attendees. That's 4 people out of over 200,000.

As a Theravada Buddhist, I know NOTHING about Zen. But it seems to have a bit of a reputation of being sort of "woo-ish". Perhaps that perspective is not uncommon? (But, for the record, to each his or her own; if it is a positive experience for those involved in it, fine).

[O'Darby]

Originally Posted by stephenMM

I've been practicing Zen for over 30 years at home and in probably two dozen zendos across the US and Hawaiian Islands. Compared to Tibetan, which has many, many types of disciplines, Zen is very simple. Sitting meditation, walking meditation, the occasional dharma study/talk, and chanting (at some centers).

Is it the discipline that is required? There are no beliefs in Zen to lean on, the core practice is sitting meditation. One needs to be self motivated for that. Is it the books that are written about Zen? Writing about Zen is like trying to trap the air with your hands. Maybe you can sorta do it, but it's a poor way to go about it as Zen is about an experience, not words. It really doesn't matter what Dogen or Thich Nhat Hann wrote because none of that can help you. Zen comes from the enlightenment experience of meditation. We have to see into our own true nature and that's a personal thing.

Is it about money? Not once have I seen a Zen Center that had a mandatory charge for anything other than a retreat where food and lodging were needed. There may occasionally be suggested donations, but no one is ever turned away for lack of funds.

I blame the Zen books, but that's just a guess. Many are written by people who don't seem to have a good grasp of the problem, and there's a tendency to have too much focus on koans, which intentionally do not make any sense logically and are seldom used in Zen centers anyway. If anyone has ever been to a Zen center, the simplicity and straight forward path is clearly right in front of you. There are no mysterious riddles posed as wisdom. There's just sitting and walking meditation, sometimes chanting, or a dharma talk. That's it. So I'm not sure why there are so few Zen centers in America, and why they are generally so sparsely attended when you do find one. I currently live in a city of around 200,000 people and there is no Zen center at all. There is only one minimally Buddhist place where they do a casual, stripped down Zen sit once a week w/ no teacher, and it usually has 3 or 4 attendees. That's 4 people out of over 200,000.

As a Christian who has studied Zen intensely - at least a hundred books, all Zen classics and not New Age pseudo-Zen - I have benefitted greatly from those studies but have never practiced at all. The closest thing to Zen practice for me would have been three-hour training runs in an attempt at mindfulness as well as bringing (or at least trying to bring) the same state to solo golf outings. (Indeed, there are at least five Zen golf books, all patterned to one degree or another on Zen In the Art of Archery.)

I don't disagree that Zen is primarily about experience, but I believe intense study, including the study of koans, left me with a pretty good grasp of what Zen is driving at and what benefits it provides. There is an anonymous, medieval Christian classic, The Cloud of Unknowing, that describes a technique for communing with God that is an almost perfect description of Zen practice. So as a Christian, I tend to think more in terms of communion that sitting.

My guess would be that serious Zen practice is simply too demanding, physically and timewise. I also think Zen has lost some of the fascination it had in, say, the 1960s. There were enough scandals. and enough criticism of Western Zen as being a pale, watered-down version of the real thing, that I think some of the attraction is gone. No one in my circle has any interest.

I have a hard time picturing a Zen practice that doesn't have an emphasis on koans. They seem to me the very essence of Zen. And with that, Mu to you!

[Thoreau424]

Maybe Zen isn't something that leads itself to attention, like other studies. I'm thinking of Taoism too, that exists more in thought and inner practice, and not towards defining in text / print (that which can be described is not the Tao, etc.), or needing public banter and human advertising.

If you're into Zen, then embrace it for all its worth, regardless of the rest of the world. A majority of one is all that matters. Sometimes the best of matters are essentially ignored or cared about by the majority of others. We can claim the gold that others don't recognize or don't want.

I appreciate both Zen and Taosim, though must admit my attention to them does wax and wane over time.

[Miss Hepburn]

Could it be they are practicing by themselves daily and not caring to go to a Zen Center?
Same with ACIM, A Course in Miracles ---it is an individual way of thinking, a shift in perspective..not a group thing.
So who can really know how many are out there involved with either.
Just guessing.

[mountainrose]

Thanks — Intriguing question you bring up.

As a practicing “spiritual” Christian of 50+ years with a long history of deep contemplative prayer practice, I studied with and did seven day silent retreats with an ordained zen master which deepened my
ability to leave the body and mind easier dropping into that sacred silence of AWARE PRESENCE.

We had great conversations on the same experiences shared by the Christian Mystics and Zen. Our spiritual roads definitely fork off and different words used, but they often are pointing to the same experience. The poet, songwriter and zen master, Lenard Cohen, had a great awakening on all this….

I think your same question and concern could also be asked about the lack of a true spiritual Christian practice — there’s hours spent going to church “events” to socializing, analyzing, debating, even arguing over scripture and doctrines and rituals, but very little time or commitment to the simple clear “chop wood, carry water” discipline of sitting a consistant and committed deep contemplative prayer/meditation practice to enrich and grow spiritually.
I believe it takes such a serious devotion, spiritual hunger, and commitment - many are just not on that path this go around….

[Thoreau424]

^ Great post mountainrose. I enjoyed and appreciated it. I think you really hit onto something concerning the seriousness of the attention and practice. And that goes for most important matters in life. It's far too easy for many to half-@ss things. Most groups go along with that as well, so there's slack all over the place. It parallels not applying large amounts of our mind for thinking and reasoning.

Gurdjieff talked extensively about this. It's really the rare and the few who apply the necessary work for true and significant progress.

[mountainrose]

Thanks for your response — I Agree ^^^ and boy can the progress be slowwwwwww sometimes, so frustration and discouragement arises to the point many drop out or go back asleep…..

[stephenMM]

Western people are so steeped in Christianity in all its forms, it's very, very difficult to let go of all that when we encounter Zen. Christianity's dualism permeates our entire society. People think this is good and this is bad, this is right and that is wrong. But that thinking gets you nowhere in Zen. Things just are as they are. Everything is situational, so what may be "good" in one situation may be "bad" in another.

This thinking actually creates the world that we live in. We are opposed to some governments and support only those that agree w/ ours. One is good and the other is bad. There is always conflict of opposites. Dualism. God vs Devil. Heaven vs Hell. People are always walking a line that goes in only 2 directions.

In Christianity there is a belief of a life beyond this one. There is no real proof, it's just taught as a fact. Nearly all of the Buddhist lineages have something that mirrors this. In fact, it's almost identical. There is bad karma vs good karma. Rebirth and reincarnation. Someone w/ Western beliefs doesn't have to change their thinking too much for the other Buddhist lineages.

But Zen says all this is nonsense. Zen is very much grounded in the Tao, and the Tao is counter intuitive to all this. We are not saved as in Christianity because there is nothing to be saved from, and there is no one to be saved. We believe we are the artificial construct of our ego, which is an illusion we are attached to. Zen says throw that away! It is just creating conflict, frustration and suffering. Rather than relying on a Bible or written words about Buddha or dharma, and rather than thinking that knowledge will help us, we should get rid it. That so called knowledge is filled w/ useless and contradictory concepts and ideas in order to get back to our original selves.

"The scholar learns something every day. The man of Tao unlearns something every day". Lao Tsu.

We have to get back to our beginner mind and we can't do it by words or concepts. We have to sit in meditation. Just abide and throw away thinking. Hopefully, if we practice this enough it carries over into our life. All this thinking creates tension as we attempt to will things into conforming into our idea of how things should be.

So I think this Zen thing is impossible for people to understand w/o letting go of their programming. They have to let go of the idea that there is some after death payoff. As if something invisible inside magically leaves us at death. Why would we think something like that? It's crazy, but it's really deeply embedded in us below our conscious awareness. And of course everything in our Western society supports this, as everything in the other Buddhist lineages also supports this, only in a slightly different manner. The core teaching of Zen is meditation, and people would much rather rely on some outside deity or karma to "save" them because its a lot less work than a meditation practice.

[BECLAZONE]

It's a hard place to find.