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isn't it just saying no personal small s "self"
it is NOT saying no large S Self
Early Buddhist teachings in the Pali canon recognize the unborn, uncreated, unformed.
what gets in the way of accessing that, or even recognizing the difference, is over-intellectualizing it.
"So to access the unmanifested, the unborn, the uncreated, if you want to use those words, you have to find within yourself the space of no thought which is always there. It’s just covered up by continuous thought. "
isn't it just saying no personal small s "self"
it is NOT saying no large S Self
Early Buddhist teachings in the Pali canon recognize the unborn, uncreated, unformed.
I have listened to lectures about this as a paradox of the non-self or anatma. If there is no self then who perceives this absence?
Shankara came after Buddha and gathered the Vedic texts and founded the Advaita philosophy based on them - the oneness, Advaitam, of the atman and Brhman, the self and Self.
Both the sages started from the same place. Their audience were different, their focus also was different. It is possible Buddha did not teach all that was revealed to him. He instead focused on behavior and attitude that will help alleviate suffering which is inevitable, a pragmatic approach. His followers were simple folk. He did not deny all the texts on which his knowledge, thoughts, and teachings were based. And he did not teach them. He only rejected those parts of the texts that look at rites and rituals as an end in themselves and also the means to rewards in future lives. Instead he taught to focus on the here and now, this life, never mind future births. Thus non-self which incarnates in a cycle?
The puzzling aspect is the rebirth theory some Buddhists still cling to. What gets reborn? Advaita posits the fruits of karma get incarnated. I have not seen a Buddhist explanation that is clear.
“There is no self.”
“Nope, never said that, either.”—The Buddha
' “There is no self” is the granddaddy of fake Buddhist quotes. It has survived so long because of its superficial resemblance to the teaching on anatta, or not-self, which was one of the Buddha’s tools for putting an end to clinging. Even though he neither affirmed nor denied the existence of a self, he did talk of the process by which the mind creates many senses of self—as it pursues its desires. ' The Buddha was careful to classify questions based on how helpful they were to gaining awakening. But if the question was an obstacle on the path, the Buddha put it aside. When asked point-blank whether or not there is a self, the Buddha remained silent, which means that the question has no helpful answer.
' So how did we get the idea that the Buddha said that there is no self? The main culprit seems to be the debate culture of ancient India. Religious teachers often held public debates on the hot questions of the day. The Buddha warned his followers not to enter into these debates, partly because the debaters couldn’t follow the Buddha’s policy of putting useless questions aside.
'Because clinging lies at the heart of suffering, and because there’s clinging in each sense of self, he advised using the perception of not-self as a strategy to dismantle that clinging. Whenever you see yourself identifying with anything stressful and inconstant, you remind yourself that it’s not-self: not worth clinging to, not worth calling your self. This helps you let go of it. In this way, the not-self teaching is an answer—not to the question of whether there’s a self, but to the question that the Buddha said lies at the heart of discernment: You find true happiness by letting go. When there’s no more clinging, you have no need for perceptions either of self or not-self. You see no point in answering the question of whether there is or isn’t a self. So it’s important to remember which questions the not-self teaching was meant to answer and which ones it wasn’t.'
shorter article here in Tricyle Buddhist review The grand-daddy of fake Buddhist quotes
longer article here from "Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta"
---both by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Buddhist monk trained in the Thai Forest Tradition
i have to agree with the wisdom of not engaging in useless debate, and simply setting aside certain questions. because they are seen as an impediment, distraction, or obstacle to the larger goal. still holds true today, as seen here on CD
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-22-2023 at 09:19 PM..
“There is no self.”
“Nope, never said that, either.”—The Buddha
' “There is no self” is the granddaddy of fake Buddhist quotes. It has survived so long because of its superficial resemblance to the teaching on anatta, or not-self, which was one of the Buddha’s tools for putting an end to clinging. Even though he neither affirmed nor denied the existence of a self, he did talk of the process by which the mind creates many senses of self—as it pursues its desires. ' The Buddha was careful to classify questions based on how helpful they were to gaining awakening. But if the question was an obstacle on the path, the Buddha put it aside. When asked point-blank whether or not there is a self, the Buddha remained silent, which means that the question has no helpful answer.
' So how did we get the idea that the Buddha said that there is no self? The main culprit seems to be the debate culture of ancient India. Religious teachers often held public debates on the hot questions of the day. The Buddha warned his followers not to enter into these debates, partly because the debaters couldn’t follow the Buddha’s policy of putting useless questions aside.
'Because clinging lies at the heart of suffering, and because there’s clinging in each sense of self, he advised using the perception of not-self as a strategy to dismantle that clinging. Whenever you see yourself identifying with anything stressful and inconstant, you remind yourself that it’s not-self: not worth clinging to, not worth calling your self. This helps you let go of it. In this way, the not-self teaching is an answer—not to the question of whether there’s a self, but to the question that the Buddha said lies at the heart of discernment: You find true happiness by letting go. When there’s no more clinging, you have no need for perceptions either of self or not-self. You see no point in answering the question of whether there is or isn’t a self. So it’s important to remember which questions the not-self teaching was meant to answer and which ones it wasn’t.'
shorter article here in Tricyle Buddhist review The grand-daddy of fake Buddhist quotes
longer article here from "Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta"
---both by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Buddhist monk trained in the Thai Forest Tradition
i have to agree with the wisdom of not engaging in useless debate, and simply setting aside certain questions. because they are seen as an impediment, distraction, or obstacle to the larger goal. still holds true today, as seen here on CD
Thank you, Tzaph for this post. This clarifies a lot. It is the same steps Advaita takes ascwell, eliminating what is not-self, by not this, not this, to arrive at what remains always, the self. The clinging to that which is not the self too is in the teachings, it is the covering (kosha) of the Atma by clinging to the ego which has no existence other than what the mind creates. Good stuff.
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