Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I’m going to make my introduction short, the following explanation of the self is by all means correct. It is extremely logical and not at all complex and yet we live in a world in which almost nobody gets it. It’s honestly mind blowing.
Robert Lanza, one of the few scientists who acknowledges the fact that we do not have a self wrote a book about it, claiming that there is in fact an afterlife as a result.
Some positive critiques on the book by other scientists:
“Like “A Brief History of Time” it is indeed stimulating and brings biology into the whole. Any short statement does not do justice to such a scholarly work.” —E. Donnall Thomas, 1990 Nobel Prize winner in Physiology and Medicine
“It’s a masterpiece — truly a magnificent essay. Bob Lanza is to be congratulated for a fresh and highly erudite look at the question of how perception and consciousness shape reality and common experience.” - Michael Lysaght, Professor of Medical Science and Engineering, Brown University and Director of Brown’s Center for Biomedical Engineering
“So what Lanza says in this book is not new. Then why does Robert have to say it at all? It is because we, the physicists, do not say it—or if we do say it, we only whisper it, and in private—furiously blushing as we mouth the words. True, yes; politically correct, hell no!’” —Richard Conn Henry, Professor of Physics and Astronomy, Johns Hopkins University
The explanation:
Teleportation:
If we teleport a human, will the same ‘person’ experience the conscious experiences before and after teleportation?
Let’s say we have Bob, Bob is afraid to take a teleport but is forced to. He will travel from earth to Mars. When Bob steps out of the teleport on Mars the first thing he thinks is “Thank God it worked”. However a minute or so later he realizes that it might not have worked, and that he in fact just got ‘born’ a minute ago. He seems to remember his childhood memories, and remembers stepping into the teleport on earth, and the next thing he knew he as right there on Mars. But did ‘he’ actually experience that childhood? Was it ‘he’ who stepped into the teleport? Or was that simply somebody else?
Physicist Michio Kaku addressed this topic on the youtube channel Big Think:
“So it raises a question: Are we nothing but information? Is the soul, the essence of who we are nothing but information? Well I’m a physicist, we don’t know the answer to that.”
It’s the far future and humans are capable to create conscious robots. We have a robot which is conscious just like you and me. It has multiple sensors as input signals and mechanical arms and tripod like legs as output possibilities. It’s central ‘brain’ processes the input signals and creates a proper output to guide it through the world.
The scientist aren’t evil and want to make sure that throughout time al the experiences are experienced by the same ‘person’, but at which point do they kill one? Can they turn of the robot overnight and turn it back on the next day? Are they allowed to alter the robot? And in which way?
Birth:
An American build conscious robot is in a philosophical mood and thinks about the ‘chance’ of being born. For example, what if the scientist who created him had made a different robot? Would he have experienced those experiences? Surely not. But what if they made him a tiny bit different? Like 0.000001 percent. Would it be ‘him’ still? Would ‘he’ experience those experiences?
The following quote is from neuroscientist Sam Harris:
“I’m not arguing that consciousness is a reality beyond science or beyond the brain or that it floats free from the brain at death. I’m not making any spooky claims about it’s metaphysics. What I am saying however is that the self is an illusion. The sense of being an ego an ‘I’, a thinker of thoughts in addition to the thoughts, an experiencer in addition to the experience. The sense that we all have of riding around inside our heads as a kind of passenger in the vehicle of the body. Now that sense of being a subject, a locus of consciousness inside the head is an illusion. It makes no neuro-anatomical sense. The is no place in the brain for our ego to be hiding. We know that everything that we experience, our conscious emotions and thoughts and moods and the impulses that initiate behavior all of these things are delivered by a myriad of different processes in the brain that are spread over the whole of the brain. The can be independently erupted. We have a changing system. We are a process and there is not one unitary self that is carried through from one moment to the next unchanging.”
Although there is no material ‘experiencer’ in addition to the experience. We can logically explain where this feeling comes from:
Information:
‘Bob’ has an experience (A) in which he thinks about what ‘he’ ate yesterday.
(A) Is conscious experience that exists, in it is visual and other information encoded recorded the day before .(A) also knows that the recording of the information was coupled with conscious experience (B). Naturally (A) will think it also experienced (B) and the feeling of ‘self’ between the two emerges.
Simply put: Conscious experiences which share information will naturally have the feeling of a common self.
The body:
The most likely way for consciousness to be created in a law-based universe is in the form of life. Because of this, conscious experiences that share information are (basically) always found in the same body or evolution thereof. We are therefore inclined to identify with our bodies.
Based on the previous thought experiments and Sam Harris’s quote I believe the most logical conclusion is that there simply is NO EXPERIENCER IN ADDTION TO EXPERIENCES.
The apartment thought experiment:
I want you to think a while about the following thought experiment:
We have drugs who are capable to regulate to which part of the brain memories are written and or read. We put Bob in the following building: It consists of a central room with a bed, and surrounding the central room are 10 different apartments. Each apartment is different and has different things to do in them.
We will label the apartments with numbers 1,2,3 etc.
Bob will live a day in apartment 1, then goes to sleep in the central room after which he spends a day in apartment 2 and again sleeps in the central room. He does this with all the apartments after which he starts again with apartment 1 and continuous this loop during the experiment.
Depending in which apartment Bob will live in the next day he will be given the correct drug so he can read/write the memories of that specific apartment.
Because of this, when Bob participates with the experiment, he appears to be experience the life of only one apartment. When he lives a day in apartment 1 and goes to sleep, the next thing he knows is that he once again needs to go to apartment 1. When Bob experiences apartment 5, it seems to him that he only experiences apartment 5. When apartment 5 is boring or has bad living condition, he can say it was just bad luck that ‘he’ ended up in apartment 5.
Also when Bob participates with the experiment there isn’t a chance that he is going to die doing it.
It is not that because there could’ve been 11 apartment, there is a 10/11 chance that he will live, and a 1/11 chance that Bob will end up in the nonexistent 11th apartment. In which case ‘he’ would experience absolutely nothing.
We can also expand the experiment:
Bob can communicate with the different apartments via email or sms and we could give Bob from each apartment a different job: Bob from apartment 1 could be a mailman, apartment 2 a cashier, 3 a taxidriver etc.
Each will have different salaries, coworkers and friend. In essence Bob from each apartment will have it’s own life.
Consclusion:
If there is in fact no experiencer in addition to conscious experiences then by default are the conscious experiences of the different “Bob’s” in the previous experiment experienced by the same ‘person’ just as much as the conscious experiences of the all the different humans on planet earth.
Now here is the big question: What happens when we stop giving a specific drug in the previous experiment? What happens with Bob from apartment 5 when we simply skip his apartment for the rest of the experiment?
Like Michio Kaku said; “Is the soul, the essence of who we are only information?”
Not thinking is ok until we start telling our others they are wrong.
Instead of following me around to search for another opportunity to criticize me (since you have no real interest in Buddhism), try reading the following:
"Actually Dhamma as taught by the Buddha is
quite easy and simple, as his disciples exclaimed,
"It is so explicitly clear my Lord! Your sermon is
like turning an inverted object right side up." This
should not come as a surprise because we are all
born with Dhamma, live with Dhamma, and will
all die with Dhamma. We just don't realize where
Dhamma is until it is revealed to us through the
Teachings of the Buddha, which provide us with
a simple path to follow."
It's from "The Path to Enlightenment I" by Venerable Luangpor Pramote Pamojjo of Wat Suan Santidham in Chonburi, Thailand. There are actually 2 volumes.
I'm sure you interest in Buddhism is keen enough that you will read both volumes. uh-huh.
Instead of following me around to search for another opportunity to criticize me (since you have no real interest in Buddhism), try reading the following:
"Actually Dhamma as taught by the Buddha is
quite easy and simple, as his disciples exclaimed,
"It is so explicitly clear my Lord! Your sermon is
like turning an inverted object right side up." This
should not come as a surprise because we are all
born with Dhamma, live with Dhamma, and will
all die with Dhamma. We just don't realize where
Dhamma is until it is revealed to us through the
Teachings of the Buddha, which provide us with
a simple path to follow."
It's from "The Path to Enlightenment I" by Venerable Luangpor Pramote Pamojjo of Wat Suan Santidham in Chonburi, Thailand. There are actually 2 volumes.
I'm sure you interest in Buddhism is keen enough that you will read both volumes. uh-huh.
No, I put Buddhism in the islam pile. They go to far for me. He walked out on his kid.
Its about knowing ones level phet. Any level is ok. Striking at other levels, using noble causes to disguise revenge only erodes what usefulness islam and Buddhism may have,
Your holy books are a review at this point. lol, I know how much it bothers you thats why I said it. Use it to focus out the noise, if you can.
No, I put Buddhism in the islam pile. They go to far for me. He walked out on his kid.
Its about knowing ones level phet. Any level is ok. Striking at other levels, using noble causes to disguise revenge only erodes what usefulness islam and Buddhism may have,
Your holy books are a review at this point. lol, I know how much it bothers you thats why I said it. Use it to focus out the noise, if you can.
I want everyone to notice the part I bolded and underlined. This is my actual evidence that Arach stalks others on the forum, rather than trying to promote honest discussion.
Now, as to the actual topic. If you go to the Tipitaka, Buddha's words (if they actually are his) are not very complex. The lessons he teaches are in everyday language that virtually anyone can understand. Most of the lessons are taught in allegories (and not taught as facts). It is later teachers (such as monks) who have made the lessons far more complicated. And that is especially true for later Western teachers.
Buddhism is pretty simple. In life there's a lot of suffering. Does anyone really doubt that? The challenge -- in lessons taught about Buddhism -- is that there are things we can do to reduce suffering. How do you do that? Through the Eightfold Path:
1. Right understanding and viewpoint (based on the Four Noble Truths -- human life has a lot of suffering, and much of that suffering is based on greed. There is a way to end suffering (all? that's questionable), and that is by following a path that is 'in the middle' (life's lived in the extreme are often more painful).
2. Take on the right values and have a positive attitude...generally a recipe for a happier life, although there will still be suffering.
3. Use right speech (don't lie, try not to be harsh with others).
4. Use right action (help others, be honest, try not to harm living things).
5. Do something useful with your life.
6. When you contemplate doing something, think about whether it's the right thing to do.
7. Be mindful of what you are doing. Focus. Multi-tasking may not be your friend.
8. Being calm is better than being frenetic. Meditation can help...if meditation is done correctly and with the right intent.
However, it's not a cookbook. Each person's path will be a little different. A good place to start is by trying to fulfill the 5 basic Precepts:
1. Try not to harm living things.
2. Do not steal.
3. Lead a "decent life".
4. Do not speak unkindly or tell lies.
5. Do not use drugs or drink alcohol.
Those 5 things are difficult to fully achieve. Fulfill them as best you can.
All the things I've listed are challenging enough. One can certainly make them far more complicated, but I would suggest that few of us can be fully successful on just that...let alone try to add more complexity to it.
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,454,406 times
Reputation: 6670
Iain McGilchrist, Author of 'The Master and His Emissary', has some interesting, and relevant notions re: the 'modern' evolution of Consciousness and the Self...
I'm not sure what all that writing is above here, but the people mentioned in the first post as experts have no idea what the self means. In Buddhism, there is the Self, and then there is the self, or more correctly, the non self. Buddhism sees our usual self as the false self, and it's made up of memories, learned experiences, phobias, neurosis, indoctrination, other people's ideas ,what our parents and schools taught us about who we were, and on and on. Look in the mirror, that's your false self, it's who you THINK you are, and unfortunately, we actually believe it's us!
This is the fundamental problem in Buddhism, because this false self, or ego, is not real, and not being real, it constantly is attempting to make us think its real. It has all these desires and wants and needs, and it tells us that if we just get this or give up that, THEN we'll be happy. But it doesn't work, desire is a huge problem w/ this, and it is never ending. We're always a little unsettled because part of us knows this ego is a lie, but we don't know any other way to be.
During sitting meditation, we have an opening for our true self to appear. Strangely enough, our real self consists of no self (or no personal self). We have the experience, assuming we meditate enough, that the floor we're staring at is us. The chair or cushion we're on is us, we are everything that ever existed in the entire universe, and all that ever will. The cat is us, it's all us because the meditation got us out of the ego "us", and now we can experience reality w/o it being in the way. It's usually a very short flash, and then we go right back to our thoughts. Our thoughts are almost always from the false self, and by keeping us thinking, it manages to keep us from realizing that it is false.
This is difficult to talk about because it isn't like there is this entity within us, its is about thoughts, beliefs, etc that are ingrained into our brains w/o our permission and w/o our knowledge that they're even there. It starts as soon as we're born, and we start to mistakenly believe that we are here and mommy is over there, but in "no thought" (meditation) there is no space, all is one. I'm just trying to describe something that is an experience and can't be described. Sit in meditation and you will know. Just sit upright, and put your attention on where your breath enters and exits your nose. When you find your mind has wandered from that focus, simply bring the focus back to your breath. It's about letting go, so when we're trapped in our thoughts w/o even knowing it, we are learning to shut them down by not shutting them down, its the only way this can work. After 10-15 minutes of meditation our mind settles down and the meditation is better, but you have to start from where you are. The more we do this, the more we discover that almost everything we do and everything we think is just thoughts. They're not real, they're simply thoughts.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
