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The problem that makes it less than simple is that the slightest disagreement or dissent, however gently and kindly presented, is then gaslighted as obnoxious, belittling and attacking. This is how they escape actually engaging in discussions on the merits, and actually addressing any points raised.
It is easier to tap dance around this in general social situations, but this is a place where people supposedly come to actually discuss the issues at hand. Some of those people are so used to an echo chamber that they loose it over the slightest failure to think highly of their every thought.
And that echo chamber blinds them to being open-minded about other cultural beliefs.
You haven't described what he means exactly by "respectful atheism". If he's talking about not being purposely abrasive and dismissive just because you like yourself some theist chew toys, I tend to agree with that. If he's talking about walking on eggshells to never challenge or wound the tender sensibilities that some theists exhibit, then not so much.
Theists have, by and large, grown accustomed over many centuries to un-earned deference and respect for often risible notions. In the marketplace of ideas, in other words, they have in a broad historical sense mostly gotten a free pass and lots of protection sometimes too (blasphemy laws, for one example).
Just because some theists feel threatened and attacked by simple disagreement cannot be my problem as an atheist.
I'll get back to you about this when I've made more progress in the book. It might take me an entire month to finish it, because I won't be heading to that particular location all that regularly, and it isn't available at the other two Buffalo-area Barnes & Noble locations
ETA that there are only 3 reviews/ratings of the book on Amazon, lol.
Last edited by Matt Marcinkiewicz; 12-01-2023 at 01:52 PM..
It's a pretty easy concept, treat others as you would like to be treated.
Don't be obnoxious about your views and don't belittle and attack others over them.
Doesn't matter the topic, religion, politics, diet, race, sports team.......anything.
That's the goal, and it's generally how I operate in real life. I'm human though and it's difficult to not occasionally snap when exposed to people confidently expressing ridiculous beliefs, whether of a religious or political nature. I try to retain my composure though as there's absolutely nothing to be gained by arguing in those situations. Recently a poker acquaintance of mine was expressing interest about how I 'navigate life' as an atheist. That's a much different situation than the norm, as this person, while himself religious, was displaying genuine, non-judgmental curiosity and some open-mindedness (he mentioned during the course of our short conversation that he'd been reading from the Quran as well as the Bible lately, so he's clearly doing some 'questioning' at the moment)
My wife was averse to the word "atheist" although I think over the 15 years we've been together she has overcome that. She has never believed in any god. Her objection to the term was purely social. And it's understandable as women overall tend to be more socially sensitive than men.
That said, neither of us lead with our atheism publicly, as it tends to create heat rather than light. I use the term only in philosophical conversations and those mostly only happen for me here.
I'm convinced that is the situation in the US. Not so much here, or that's my impression; we just don't talk about religion here. I am convinced that atheist has such a bad rap in the US that even non -believers use the term 'Agnostic' rather than atheist.
No doubt someone by now has made mention that the terms "atheist" and "agnostic" are not mutually exclusive.
I consider myself an agnostic atheist. In fact, most people are agnostic atheists, including most people who claim "no affiliation" on poles.
But as Transponder pointed out, ultra right-wing evangelism and fundamentalism has been vilifying and demonizing non-believers for a long time now. So much so that the term "atheist" truly is considered a bad thing to be. Even among atheists.
Which is shameful. We non-believers should have NEVER handed the religious-right that victory. It won't be long before they go after the term "agnostic" as well. No doubt they'll try to claim that agnostic and atheist mean pretty much the same thing.
I still proudly wear the badge of Atheism -- because I am convinced that my cause is a just and moral one. All you have to do is realize that right-wing evangelism and fundamentalism see Trump as the second coming, and that man is quite literally the antithesis of every moral outrage Christians ever had -- except that he hasn't been caught with another man in a restroom somewhere. Yet.
Most atheists will admit that it cannot be proven that "A" god exists. I think over the years that I've made sufficient arguments proving that Yahweh doesn't exist, that Christianity is just a ridiculous mish-mash of contradicting and confusing ramblings of ancient Palestinian goad herders -- and the same could be said about all religions currenly being practiced.
But that doesn't discount the possibility of there being "a" god -- though I highly highly doubt it. Because the unverse as it currently exists, doesn't have any need or room for magic.
And I think it would be an awful cruel thing for a god like Yahweh to do -- to demand love, worship, and blind obedience while not only providing no evidence for his existence, but creating a universe that actually shows that no god was needed at all, thus contradicting these ridiculous origin stories. As anyone who has done even cursory studies of cosmology will tell you -- there simply is no need for an all-powerful god. Are there things we don't yet know? Of course there is. We haven't reached the peak of our knowledge.
Interesting, though, how most Christians will say that, even if science really did disprove God, they would continue believing, continue having "faith" that god exists. They are 100% sure that Yahweh exists. Not "a" god, but specifically Yahweh, and nothing, literally nothing, has provided any proof whatsoever that Yahweh exists.
And that's where my atheism comes from. When it comes to Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah as well as Krishna or Ganesh or Kali ... or the gods of any other religion, I am an atheist. There is MORE than enough evidence showing how those gods and their accompanying myths are just that -- myths.
Can I prove that no god exists? No. But I am 99.9% certain that there are no gods. Especially not "personal" gods.
The problem is this: If someone were to ask an adult whether Santa exists. Or the Tooth Fairy. Or Frodo Baggins. Or Harry Potter. Or Darth Vader. Or Lord Stark. Or any other fictitious character, they would say without question that they are 100% certain that none of these characters exist. Anywhere. Not even out there in the seemingly infinite vastness of space. Nope. They do not exist. There is no chance for them to exist. They wouldn't give a possibility that well ... we can't prove beyond a doubt that Darth Vader isn't living "somewhere" out there ... right?
No ... they wouldn't. And yet, if you were to ask a Christian, they are 100% certain that Yahweh exists even though there isn't any more evidence for the existence of Yahweh than there is for the existence of Luke Skywalker or Cylons or James Bond. (At least Luke Skywalker, Cylons, and James Bond COULD exist within our laws of physics, unlike a timeless, all-powerful being with no physicality and therefore exists literally everywhere and, thus, nowhere simultaneously -- which, of course, is impossible.)
And yet billions of people believe without question that which is impossible while refusing to believe, in any capacity, that the possible could possibly exist.
Ergo, Yahweh, an impossible being, is 100% true while Darth Vader, who could theoretically exist somewhere out there in space, is 100% untrue.
This just goes to show how irrational believe in Yahweh actually is. Why should we even be discussing whether the term "atheism" should be used? Why are we allowing ourselves to be manipulated by evangelicals and fundies to hide our atheism?
Because I think pretty much everyone who doesn't believe in God can confidently say that these ancient myths from Palestine are not true. Sure, maybe there's a god -- but even that is so remote that we might as well start believing in the existence of Darth Vader and Cylons and the Stark family and Harry Potter and ... hell, why not ... might as well believe in Samantha and Tabitha from the "Bewitched" series, or that a robot on a distant planet screeches, "Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!" whenever this kid is in actual danger. Why not? As stated - at least these people CAN exist, unlike Yahweh, which must break all of the known laws of physics to be creating a planet, putting life on it, then getting all mad and egocentric when that life, with free will, doesn't blindly obey every command.
I'm convinced that is the situation in the US. Not so much here, or that's my impression; we just don't talk about religion here. I am convinced that atheist has such a bad rap in the US that even non -believers use the term 'Agnostic' rather than atheist.
If the matter arises*, I tend to go with 'I don't believe in God or any other dieties' simply for clarity's sake, as opposed to any aversion to atheist, a term I'll happily use if I think the other conversant has a real grasp of the concept.
I would not use agnostic (though I'm technically one of those as well) because the number of people who understand that that term does not describe a middle ground between atheism and theism seems to be rather small. Also, I find the term of very little practical descriptive value.
*This very rarely happens, and when it does the questioner is usually another atheist who has somehow surmised that I'm probably a fellow traveler.
…And part of the reason is that they {theists} will excuse ANYTHING in the bible just because it's in the bible. Slavery...if it's in the bible, no problem. Violence against others...if it's in the bible, no problem. Well, such things ARE a problem, regardless of when they happened or where they happened.
What do you think as an atheist regarding the violence and slavery in the nature?
Would you excuse it?
Serious question
If the matter arises*, I tend to go with 'I don't believe in God or any other dieties' simply for clarity's sake, as opposed to any aversion to atheist, a term I'll happily use if I think the other conversant has a real grasp of the concept.
I would not use agnostic (though I'm technically one of those as well) because the number of people who understand that that term does not describe a middle ground between atheism and theism seems to be rather small. Also, I find the term of very little practical descriptive value.
*This very rarely happens, and when it does the questioner is usually another atheist who has somehow surmised that I'm probably a fellow traveler.
Yes. As Shirina implies, it should be well - known here that everyone is agnostic in that they don't know whether any gods exist or not (though some think they do) so the term is meaningless. It is not a knowledge - position but a belief or unbelief position. Belief in a god or gods of any kind (aside the semantic nonsense that has been engaged in on both boards ) makes one a Theist, unbelief for any reason makes one an atheist. It is not a gnostic denial of any possibility of a god, but not being convinced by the evidence so far.
That said, I can understand why some might opt for the term 'agnostic' or '"I don't do religion" seems to work. You can be as irreligious as you like, so long as you aren't an"Aytheist"
What do you think as an atheist regarding the violence and slavery in the nature?
Would you excuse it?
Serious question
No. Human -devised moral codes (not religious ones, which seem to be pretty cool with slavery and violence, if approved - or done - by a god) says it's bad. We have worked to stop slavery, and it has worked pretty well, and is now a matter of worker rights, and human trafficking which requires attention and one thing that facilitates it is violence.
Which is why we need - not to excuse it but to understand it; why we do it. All the time we don't understand why we use violence rather than reason, we can't hope to cure it, or exploitation.
I don't even care if I'm an 'atheist' or not, or if anyone else is, or isn't, whatever that label is. At this point in my life, I'm so over all of it and could not care less.
I know that the Noah story, for example, is a myth, as is the rest of it. That's an obvious fact of deduction to me, and something I'm not in denial about, like perhaps others are about it. The creation stories are not actual reality.
The Christian God character clearly falls into the same boat, and the magical supernatural Jesus claims. However, yes, maybe some kind of deist type entity created the universe and planned all of this- none of us could have any clue about that.
As far as respect, I only respect the people that deserve it, and that show an equal respect and decency and thoughtfulness themselves. And I respect only the ideas/notions that deserve it. I think that's pretty fair.
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) makes one a Theist, unbelief for any reason makes one an atheist. It is not a gnostic denial of any possibility of a god, but not being convinced by the evidence so far. 
