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And I hate to break it to PossumMan, but odds are that his beloved local enclosed mall is increasingly bereft of tenants and will either close or be "demalled" to save itself as a result.*
*Here in the Philadelphia area, two malls — Granite Run outside Media and the former Echelon Mall, now Voorhees Town Center, in New Jersey — have demalled themselves and turned into open-air promenades or faux Main Streets. A third, Plymouth Meeting, appears to be on life support.
That's something I don't understand. Weather hasn't changed and in many places it's blazing hot in summer, or cold in the winter, or raining. Almost like another California trend that's getting built around the country even though most of the country isn't California. I understand the desire. We loved shopping in the mall around Stanford and PaloAlto. But where I am now? It's 30 degrees and pouring rain. I have no desire to walk around a mall gettiing soaked.
A couple of towns around here in middle Tennessee are trying to duplicate what they did in downtown Franklin (very nice small city) but they don't have the upper middle-class money to shop in the trendy stores and eat in the trendy restaurants. The working-class folks in those towns are just going to Walmart.
...Almost like another California trend that's getting built around the country even though most of the country isn't California....
Yeah, there's a builder around here (North Texas) that specializes in these houses with a living room that's separated from the patio by a glass garage door that you're supposed to roll up and make the whole house open-air "in nice weather". Obviously inspired by life in the temperate parts of California. Obviously has NEVER been outdoors in "nice weather" in Texas. You roll that garage door up in "nice weather" here and you'll be swatting mosquitoes in your bedroom for weeks. There's a reason why every traditional house in Texas has screens on the windows!
I'm personally sick and tired of the idea that every single place in the US has to look like and act like California. From flat roofs and floor-to-ceiling windows in New England (wow, look at the oil tank indicator drop!) to "outdoor rooms" in Texas (shall we go out to the "outdoor room" for dinner? It's only 98 degrees and 75% RH here in August) - and the ubiquitous "all houses must be white and black" - just leave us alone, OK?
That's something I don't understand. Weather hasn't changed and in many places it's blazing hot in summer, or cold in the winter, or raining. Almost like another California trend that's getting built around the country even though most of the country isn't California. I understand the desire. We loved shopping in the mall around Stanford and PaloAlto. But where I am now? It's 30 degrees and pouring rain. I have no desire to walk around a mall gettiing soaked.
A couple of towns around here in middle Tennessee are trying to duplicate what they did in downtown Franklin (very nice small city) but they don't have the upper middle-class money to shop in the trendy stores and eat in the trendy restaurants. The working-class folks in those towns are just going to Walmart.
Indoor malls can be very expensive to run(heating/cooling). Between the over retailing(far too many malls built between 1980-2000) and even worse the internet, smaller outdoor centers are what are more profitable.
That's something I don't understand. Weather hasn't changed and in many places it's blazing hot in summer, or cold in the winter, or raining. Almost like another California trend that's getting built around the country even though most of the country isn't California. I understand the desire. We loved shopping in the mall around Stanford and PaloAlto. But where I am now? It's 30 degrees and pouring rain. I have no desire to walk around a mall gettiing soaked.
A couple of towns around here in middle Tennessee are trying to duplicate what they did in downtown Franklin (very nice small city) but they don't have the upper middle-class money to shop in the trendy stores and eat in the trendy restaurants. The working-class folks in those towns are just going to Walmart.
I was born and raised in the city that's home to the nation's first planned shopping center, the century-old Country Club Plaza in Kansas City.
It's incorporated into the fabric of the neighborhoods surrounding it: Its shops face streets that are part of the city grid. They have offices over them. On the opposite bank of the creek that flows past it on its south side are the apartment buildings that house Kansas City's urban cliff dwellers.
Kansas City winters are colder (and these days snowier) than those on either coast and its summers are hotter, though nowhere near as toasty as those in Arizona. In the spring, it gets rain and tornadoes, and the summers are sticky as well. Yet the Plaza hasn't lost its appeal. Meanwhile, a mid-1950s suburban mall that covered itself and three other enclosed malls built in the 1970s in KC's suburbs have all been bulldeozed.
And while most of the ultra-luxe retailers that were in it when I visited it pre-pandemic have followed the serious money out to Leawood in Johnson County, it's still pretty upscale, certainly more so than when I was growing up there (Sears was one of its anchor stores, and it had a supermarket and a bowling alley, but it also had branches of KC's now-defunct carriage-trade department store, Emery Bird Thayer, and an outlet of Halls, the high-end boutiquey department store run by the family that owns Kansas City-based Hallmark Cards).
Put another way, outdoor shopping centers predate enclosed malls by about 30 years (the first one of those opened outside Detroit in 1955). Regardless what the weather, they seem to have an enduring appeal.
Yeah, there's a builder around here (North Texas) that specializes in these houses with a living room that's separated from the patio by a glass garage door that you're supposed to roll up and make the whole house open-air ”in nice weather”. Obviously inspired by life in the temperate parts of California. Obviously has NEVER been outdoors in ”nice weather” in Texas. You roll that garage door up in ”nice weather” here and you'll be swatting mosquitoes in your bedroom for weeks. There's a reason why every traditional house in Texas has screens on the windows!
I'm personally sick and tired of the idea that every single place in the US has to look like and act like California. From flat roofs and floor-to-ceiling windows in New England (wow, look at the oil tank indicator drop!) to ”outdoor rooms” in Texas (shall we go out to the ”outdoor room” for dinner? It's only 98 degrees and 75% RH here in August) - and the ubiquitous ”all houses must be white and black” - just leave us alone, OK?
The term ”Breezeway” comes to mind for me. It was common in the 1960s UP NORTH for ranch-style homes including modular ones (two halves make the home). It was common when I was a boy and my more prosperous Aunt and Uncle (him being a teamsters truck driver in the glory days of wages/benefits +pensions) who had one built in the 1960s.
The breezeway has an open area with a full roof between the garage and main home. The roofs were all one and uniformly built across the home. Many in an early suburb were modular that today still stand proud some fully brick now with additions and as most did in redoing the breezeway a full enclosed new room as a den etc. That is what my relatives did as their first change with a huge fireplace perhaps already into the 70s. All today did that..
Windows are rarely a whole house. Minimalism/less-is-more was a Modernist Mid-20th century thing. It gave us some glass modernist 1-story ranch homes that never became common and all those glass-boxes of buildings we get today as office buildings and others common in Texas as anywhere. Skyscrapers became standard for glass exterior curtain walls also including residential whether in hot regions or areas that get frigid. We clearly have upgraded glass today that can hold back Texas heat and the sun along with cold areas with real winters.
California gave us the ”ranch home”. That became the ”standard” for suburban growth as Texas adopted it that is till the McMansion caught on that became multiple levels. LA gets higher density in its huge suburban areas even with ranch varieties with good size yards. They get their density from being ”continuous” few parks added and need for floodplain set aside. SF is their most dense city in the nation. Its suburban Bay region is far less though still can be single-homes. NYC no other city will ever be as it but for pockets.
The nicest one I have been to is the Fashion Island in Newport Beach. And the pedestrian mall is surrounded by a bunch of Class A office buildings, hotels etc. Opened in 1967. Same owner The Irvine Company. Fashion Island - Shopping, Dining and Entertainment | Newport Beach
More compact entertainment based one, across the river from Cincy.
Pedestrian malls/zones don't only exist in Europe... Buenos Aires, Cairo, Bangkok, Seoul, etc. Maybe they aren't as busy on extremely hot/cold days, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist at all.
It's amazing how Americans always have an excuse as to why something is possible everywhere in the world but the US.
Let's face it(and I won't deny it as an American, heck I notice it in Canada when over there too), we do like driving more than a lot of other countries do. That is probably why they don't succeed as much here, as they do in Europe.
There are some places that have done some nice pedestrianizing, where you don't notice cars as much. I'm thinking for example like Lincoln Square, which is a nice 2 block section of Lincoln Ave south of Lawrence. Where it is only one way southbound, and does have speed bumps(and diagonal parking, which is only permitted on one side of the street) to slow drivers going through there. The fountain at Giddings Plaza is nice, as well. RIP to Cafe Selmarie, which closed in April of this year.
Marion Street in Oak Park(Illinois), is nice as well. I think at one time that was 100% car free, but it did reopen to cars some years back. Glenwood Ave near Morse(in Rogers Park neighborhood in Chicago) was one of the few places still closing off a street(Glenwood) to cars totally, and is like a leftover thing from the(back then) 2020 and 2021 trend of closing streets off to cars. I know the aldermember(for the ward in River North) was trying to bring back the outdoor dining closure on Clark St for 2024, but not sure if he succeeded in doing that.
That said there aren't a lot of true outdoor pedestrian malls, in the US. Aside from a few, like one in downtown Boulder(Colorado), and one in Burlington(Vermont). Might be some others I'm forgetting, but not 100% sure.
Let's face it(and I won't deny it as an American, heck I notice it in Canada when over there too), we do like driving more than a lot of other countries do. That is probably why they don't succeed as much here, as they do in Europe.
There are some places that have done some nice pedestrianizing, where you don't notice cars as much. I'm thinking for example like Lincoln Square, which is a nice 2 block section of Lincoln Ave south of Lawrence. Where it is only one way southbound, and does have speed bumps(and diagonal parking, which is only permitted on one side of the street) to slow drivers going through there. The fountain at Giddings Plaza is nice, as well. RIP to Cafe Selmarie, which closed in April of this year.
Marion Street in Oak Park(Illinois), is nice as well. I think at one time that was 100% car free, but it did reopen to cars some years back. Glenwood Ave near Morse(in Rogers Park neighborhood in Chicago) was one of the few places still closing off a street(Glenwood) to cars totally, and is like a leftover thing from the(back then) 2020 and 2021 trend of closing streets off to cars. I know the aldermember(for the ward in River North) was trying to bring back the outdoor dining closure on Clark St for 2024, but not sure if he succeeded in doing that.
That said there aren't a lot of true outdoor pedestrian malls, in the US. Aside from a few, like one in downtown Boulder(Colorado), and one in Burlington(Vermont). Might be some others I'm forgetting, but not 100% sure.
Many cities in the US tried to convert downtown streets to pedestrian malls but they failed. Boulder and Burlington are two exceptions but cities like Providence, Fayetteville, Buffalo and most notably Chicago failed. Theres a number of reasons why from lack of foot traffic to poor planning. It’s kind of a crapshoot what makes one work and another not.
Many cities in the US tried to convert downtown streets to pedestrian malls but they failed. Boulder and Burlington are two exceptions but cities like Providence, Fayetteville, Buffalo and most notably Chicago failed. Theres a number of reasons why from lack of foot traffic to poor planning. It’s kind of a crapshoot what makes one work and another not.
Which Fayetteville tried to turn a street into an outdoor pedestrian mall? I don't know if you are talking about the one in Arkansas, or another one.
I thought when Chicago tried doing that with State Street, that they did still allow CTA buses and emergency vehicles to use State? Someone older than me will remember for sure. And I agree with you Jay, that it is too bad more US cities and towns haven't been able to succeed with outdoor pedestrian malls.
Mackinac Island, Michigan is technically car free, as well. The only vehicles allowed on the main street on the south part of that island, are emergency vehicles. It's mostly only pedestrians, and horses for horse carriages.
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