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Stigmatizing an atheist because of their atheism is discrimination.
here are examples mentioned in the opening post: "hearing religious music playing in a sandwich shop" "tried to convert me" "being called devil-worshipper" "people praying at a potluck dinner" "seeing religious ads on billboard" "people moving into the area who are religious" "shame you for lack of faith" "more of them, feeling outnumbered" "they have money" "they are building"
those are not discrimination.
also, of those ten issues listed above which bother the OP, 70% are not directed at anyone "because of their atheism."
just like these are not discrimination: atheist online calling believers delusional, dishonest, sheeple, can't think for themself. seeing atheist ads on a billboard. people moving into the area who are not religious. atheist online shaming people for their faith. attending a potluck where they don't say a blessing. in a shop hearing music that is not religious. atheists who are wealthy.
Those are not discrimination.
The OP lists things they don't like and are bothered by: music, advertisements, money, buildings, people nearby who hold different beliefs, people who say things they don't like at a meal, organizations. Those are not discrimination. They are things that bother the OP simply by their existence in his field of awareness.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-22-2024 at 10:34 PM..
if someone is worried about "what people think of them"
then they have not yet come to the realization and the wisdom of:
"What other people think of you is none of your business"
If you own a business, it definitely is your business. It would definitely be important for a Jew in Germany in the 1930's, or a black person in the US southern states. For atheists in a country were it is illegal to be one, it is definitely their business, especially if it has a death penalty attached.
Your "wisdom" sounds like it comes from a trendy magazine for bored middle aged, middle class housewives unable to think for themselves.
I'll give an example of discrimination. It was back in the 1970s in Winter Park, Florida. I needed an oil change. Went to a local service station, asked for the price. Was told that it was $X, but that if I was a card carrying christian there was a 20% discount.
If you own a business, it definitely is your business. It would definitely be important for a Jew in Germany in the 1930's, or a black person in the US southern states. For atheists in a country were it is illegal to be one, it is definitely their business, especially if it has a death penalty attached. Your "wisdom" sounds like it comes from a trendy magazine for bored middle aged, middle class housewives unable to think for themselves.
"atheists in a country where it is illegal to be one" ????? "death penalty attached" ?????
none of the things that the opening post is complaining about are illegal.
nothing described in the opening post is a threat of danger or harm or death.
it is legal in the USA to play music in a shop, to move into neighborhoods, to have wealth, to build buildings, for organizations to exist, for ads to be on billboards, for people to say words at a potluck dinner, to argue different views, to criticize, to express opposing views. the opening post though expresses a marked discomfort with those. how can someone actually complain and not recognize or accept that people have different views and different beliefs including yes at work, yes in the town or city or neighborhood you live in, yes organizations exist and buildings are built, yes people earn and spend money and may accrue wealth.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-23-2024 at 01:11 AM..
for instance how might you as an atheist or agnostic respond or react if someone complained online about hearing music that was not religious played in a sandwich shop? how might you react to hearing someone online express dislike for people moving into their neighborhood who are not religious? for being at a potluck dinner but upset that no blessing was said? if someone complained about an organization being wealthy? or building new buildings for the organization? if someone complained about billboards or co-workers that express views they disagree with?
those are the thoughts that came to mind for me in reading the opening post.
I agree with what you are saying. I have only experienced that social stigma in Midland, Texas and I moved from there as soon as I could afford it. In some ways it was a nice town, I could afford to buy a small house in a nice neighborhood, but the pressure of church people always recruiting and the ideas that my kids were coming home from school with made it impossible for me to live there. (bigotry in many different areas, including anyone non-white was also prevalent).
I really think the social stigma is something people imagine, which comes from knowing you are walking against the flow of the community, thinking you are alone in your beliefs. A strong person can rationally answer any accusation, an insecure person feels stigmatized.
We do all need a group we are comfortable with and we all have different criteria for what makes us trust people.
regarding bold above, that is an excellent insight
here are examples mentioned in the opening post: "hearing religious music playing in a sandwich shop" "tried to convert me" "being called devil-worshipper" "people praying at a potluck dinner" "seeing religious ads on billboard" "people moving into the area who are religious" "shame you for lack of faith" "more of them, feeling outnumbered" "they have money" "they are building"
those are not discrimination.
also, of those ten issues listed above which bother the OP, 70% are not directed at anyone "because of their atheism."
just like these are not discrimination: atheist online calling believers delusional, dishonest, sheeple, can't think for themself. seeing atheist ads on a billboard. people moving into the area who are not religious. atheist online shaming people for their faith. attending a potluck where they don't say a blessing. in a shop hearing music that is not religious. atheists who are wealthy.
Those are not discrimination.
The OP lists things they don't like and are bothered by: music, advertisements, money, buildings, people nearby who hold different beliefs, people who say things they don't like at a meal, organizations. Those are not discrimination. They are things that bother the OP simply by their existence in his field of awareness.
Note that I said stigmatizing, as a verb. Subjective feelings of stigma may or may not be in response to specific stigmatizing actions.
Some of the examples you listed above are discrimination. Calling someone a “devil-worshipper” because they are an atheist is a discriminatory slur. Trying to convert someone or shaming them for a lack of faith because they are an atheist is discriminatory harassment. Just because some Christians would do the same discriminatory things to Jews or Muslims or even the “wrong” types of Christians doesn’t mean it’s not also discrimination against atheists.
And the same is true for atheists who disparage or harass the religious. The major difference, of course, is that it’s extremely rare for atheists to have institutional backing (and therefore systemic power) in support of such discrimination.
"atheists in a country where it is illegal to be one" ????? "death penalty attached" ?????
none of the things that the opening post is complaining about are illegal.
nothing described in the opening post is a threat of danger or harm or death.
So it is not in the OP, therefore people should not worry about what others think of them?
Hint, I was not responding to the OP, I was responding to your point by pointing out that some people should worry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
it is legal in the USA to play music in a shop, to move into neighborhoods, to have wealth, to build buildings, for organizations to exist, for ads to be on billboards, for people to say words at a potluck dinner, to argue different views, to criticize, to express opposing views. the opening post though expresses a marked discomfort with those. how can someone actually complain and not recognize or accept that people have different views and different beliefs including yes at work, yes in the town or city or neighborhood you live in, yes organizations exist and buildings are built, yes people earn and spend money and may accrue wealth.
It is legal, therefore people should not worry about what others think of them?
All our friends and several relatives are quite religious, although not in your face so. So I dutifully bow my head during grace and if asked just say I'm not much of a church goer although I do attend sometimes. I like looking at the architecture and if paying attention analyzing the absurdity of what is being preached. They don't need to know my real feelings.
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