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Old 04-27-2023, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
11,402 posts, read 5,960,793 times
Reputation: 22361

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1003 View Post
https://www.npr.org/2022/12/15/11432...-wont-save-you


I've been telling patients this for over 50 years

Lets deconstruct this, shall we? Per article:

The U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF) recently released a big new assessment of supplements. "They say that there's insufficient evidence for use of multivitamins for the prevention of heart disease and cancer in Americans who are healthy," says Dr. Jenny Jia.


Point 1

"insufficient evidence"
insufficient evidence means still unknown. Not ineffecive, but unknown.


Point 2
"prevention of heart disease and cancer"

It is flat laughable to think vitamins and minerals would prevent death from old age diseases like heart attacks and cancer. NOBODY has ever made the serious claim. People who swear by vitamins and minerals simply proclaim they aid in health. Nobody ever said you would be IMMUNE to heart attack or death by cancer if you take vitamins or minerals. The Mother of all Straw Men.

Never mind that even if research concluded that vitamin and mineral supplements delayed death from those diseases, you could still claim they don't prevent them. What a flagrant lie it is to imply something is worthless just because it is not a be-all and end-all.


Point 3
"prevention of heart disease and cancer"

A kidney or liver transplant doesn't prevent heart disease or cancer but it is a life saving procedure that extends the life and health of recipients. Kidney dialysis doesn't prevent heart disease or cancer either. Nor do hip replacement surgeries or cataract surgeries. Lets bash them too!

Vitamins and minerals could have massive beneficial effects on your life and health, and be fundamentally important and worthwhile, while not being effective toward heart disease or cancer. So if we cure Alzheimers or find a panacea for strokes, would you also condemn them because hey, they did nothing for heart disease or cancer.
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Old 04-27-2023, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
11,402 posts, read 5,960,793 times
Reputation: 22361
TL;DR

Garbage propaganda article that states two diseases that vitamin and mineral supplements don't cure, while ignoring any and all benefits they may have in 100 other areas of human health.

Typical crap propaganda from the AMA and Big Pharma, who want you on Statins and other massively profitable drugs and treatments they push. The sicker you are, the more they make from them. So don't take any vitamin or mineral supplements, to insure you are sicker still so Big Medicine and Big Pharma can charge you an arm and a leg for their pricey drugs and treatments.

Pfffftttttt. What a joke.
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Old 05-30-2023, 02:09 PM
 
6,336 posts, read 2,889,808 times
Reputation: 7273
Quote:
Brigham Study Suggests Multivitamins May Help Protect Cognitive Function in Adults

The newly published trial (COSMOS-Web) included more than 3,500 participants aged 60 and older who completed internet-based assessments of memory and cognition each year over 3 years. Compared to the placebo group, participants randomized to multivitamin supplementation did significantly better on the memory tests at the prespecified primary time point of 1 year, and the benefits were sustained across the 3 years of follow-up. We estimated that the multivitamin intervention improved memory performance by the equivalent of 3.1 years compared to the placebo
https://medicalresearch.com/mental-h...ion-in-adults/
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Old 05-30-2023, 02:28 PM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
7,237 posts, read 5,114,062 times
Reputation: 17722
^^^ I'm not impressed. They used the Modrey Memory Test-- memorize a list of words & later regurgitate the list-- average score ~50 out of 100. The Vit group scored slightly better than the non-vit group. The dif was "statistically significant"-- not be confused with "clinically significant"- ie-- are you "Better" because you only forgot 45 words instead of 50?

Igor just said "Typical crap propaganda from the AMA and Big Pharma, who want you on Statins and other massively profitable drugs and treatments they push. "-- I think you'll find it's those same BiPharm companies are making the vit supplements, and the profit margin is even higher on those. -- You gotta come up with a more logical excuse to justify your fantasies.
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Old 05-31-2023, 06:03 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,177 posts, read 5,056,132 times
Reputation: 4228
Whenever I see a new study bashing supplements, I think to myself "slow news day"

Often, a given study is widely and gleefully misreported, with lurid headlines. Most of the studies involve inexpensive, over-the-counter multi-vitamins, like Centrum; a few looked at B-complex supplements and antioxidant combinations.

Rarely do the studies look at high-dose, quality multi-vitamins. They don’t look at the effects of significant amounts of bio-available magnesium, low-levels of which are known to be a cardiovascular risk factor; any studies that considered Vitamin K2 ? now thought to play a significant role in arterial protection. And most of the studies used supplements which contained cheap, generic forms of beta carotene, instead of full-spectrum carotenoids... synthetic vitamin E, instead of mixed tocopherols... and folic acid and cyanocobalamin (B12), instead of preferred forms like 5-methylfolate and methylcobalamin.

Vitamin D doses probably didn’t exceed the paltry RDA of 400 IUs/day. Nor are promising nutrients like fish oil, Coenzyme Q10, Aged Garlic Extract, resveratrol, curcumin, olive leaf extract, or a host of others, considered.

So, it’s (IMO) journalistic malpractice to draw the conclusion that a study proves that all supplements are worthless. It’s like saying that, based on the number of drugs recently recalled due to unacceptable side effects, we ought to conclude that medications as a whole are a dangerous waste of money, and should be avoided altogether.

Buried in the OP's linked article, is the mention (in Fig. 3) that it's a meta-analysis -- I’ll leave it to statisticians to critique the numbers-crunching in there, but suffice to say that meta-analyses are notorious for selection bias and arbitrary rules of “weighting” studies for inclusion or validity.

Worth considering is that there’s brisk controversy, even in mainstream medicine, about the value of “RCTs”. That stands for randomized controlled trials. RCTs are usually of a short duration, due to the difficulty and expense of studying a trial intervention -- be it a drug, a supplement, a diet, a certain exercise regimen -- over a period of time, involving a sufficient number of individuals, to reach statistical significance.

For example: heart disease is a complex problem that develops over decades, and the effects of nutritional supplementation might be so subtle as to not be appreciated in small, short-term RCTs. Additionally, there may be benefits in a significant minority of individuals who are nutritionally-depleted, or genetically-predisposed, to higher vitamin requirements - which get lost when we look at aggregate populations.

What’s ironic is that there’s a Catch-22 when it comes to supplements. By law -- the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA) -- supplement manufacturers are enjoined from making health claims. They are required to post this disclaimer: “These products are not intended to cure, treat or prevent any disease”. Instead, they’re relegated to using “weasel words” to make more modest claims like “supports heart health”.

So, in an exercise in twisted logic, a paper that purports to demolish the rationale for taking supplements for preventing cardiovascular disease, is only reinforcing the premise that prohibitions on disease claims for vitamins and minerals are already in place! Or, in other words, if they’re demonstrated to really have an impact on cardiovascular conditions, supplements would earn drug status, and hence be threatened with violation of DSHEA!

Is there bias at work here? Dr. Thomas Guilliams makes the case for systemic bias against supplements here. He states “...even though the $300 billion pharmaceutical industry is 10 times larger than the supplement industry...we are advised...to ‘stop wasting our money’ only on the latter. Does this sound like unbiased, scientific advice? You be the judge.”
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Old 06-01-2023, 09:49 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
7,237 posts, read 5,114,062 times
Reputation: 17722
^^^
Approaching conspiracy theory there.

The real problem-- Statistics (and all studies are statistical in nature) do NOT apply to the individual, only to the group, so they cannot pick out rare cases when most cases are not improved by the maneuver being studied..

Eg-- Vit C and scurvy. Suppose we take 10,000 people and give them Vit C and 10,000 people are the non-Vit C controls. I can guarantee you there will be no measurable difference in the health outcomes of the two groups...but suppose there is one case of scurvy (a very rare disease now) in the Vit C group. That guy will be improved miraculously in several of the measurable parameters...but he's only 0.01% of the group and his result is lost as noise in the data-->We will conclude that Vit C supplements does not help the GROUP.

That's a problem with all Vit supplement tests-- marked deficiencies are very rare in a well fed, modern population, and "partial deficiencies" can't even be discerned (if they even exist)...

Vitamins are used in extremely small amounts in our cells, and just about all cells in all organisms have all the vitamins, so if you're eating, and not on some silly fad diet, you're not getting deficient.

But, just like GMO-free food or organic food-- eating special diets and vit supplements is obviously good for the mental health of some people. If you have the money and feel a need, feel free to take supplements.
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Old 06-26-2023, 06:01 PM
 
334 posts, read 661,899 times
Reputation: 433
Vitamins cannot be patented. If they could, I am sure "clinical trials" would find a million reasons to take them. I asked my doctor about an herbal supplement. He told me "well, there has been no clinical trials to prove its effectiveness". I said to him "why not, people have been using it since ancient times?" What they hell are they waiting for?
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Old 06-26-2023, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
37,443 posts, read 61,352,754 times
Reputation: 30387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino1 View Post
Vitamins cannot be patented. If they could, I am sure "clinical trials" would find a million reasons to take them. I asked my doctor about an herbal supplement. He told me "well, there has been no clinical trials to prove its effectiveness". I said to him "why not, people have been using it since ancient times?" What they hell are they waiting for?
Patents cost a lot of money to get, AND once you have a patent they will make you much more money.

An herbal supplement is something that people can freely grow.

It makes little sense to spend Millions on a patent so you can sell a product that others can simply grow it. It makes much more sense to figure out how to synthesize the chemical from coal tar and patent the synthetic drug. And then fund a negative ad campaign against the herb it came from.

Look at the first one, Bayer has made a lot of money from synthesizing a drug from coal tar, and nearly everyone now will insist you are insane if you use the herb. [even though it was safely used for millennia before the coal tar based synthetic drug was patented].
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