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This is a good point. People forget, or aren't aware, that there was a time when children's testimony was dismissed as unreliable. Children did not have credibility against adults. There was a belief among many adults that children were natural liars and manipulators. Dark ages, indeed.
So there was no escape from a child molester in the family, for example. It was extremely controversial once light began to be shed on abuse in families, and incest and other horrors became part of public discourse. A lot of people weren't comfortable with the growing media coverage of such taboo topics, and the acknowledgement that all was not rosy in American families. Fortunately for the child victims, that has changed.
^^^^Spot on---and I'm glad things have changed for the better.
Thank you, Lodestar! In the past, I owned the book. Somewhere along the line (probably during a move) it got displaced.
I often look at how my brothers and I turned out. My husband says I'm the normal one. One of my brothers became an alcoholic and also self-medicated with tobacco and pot. He was a functioning alcoholic in the sense that he held a job and did it well. I'm sure no one at work would have guessed he was an alcoholic. Ironically, he was my mother's favorite. She even told my other brother and I that our brother was "perfect". He was 56 when he died over ten years ago. Cancer got him like it got our mother.
When I was in high school, I told a teacher what was going on in our house. Where we were living at the time, when my mother was drunk and screaming at us, crowds would gather outside the house to listen to her.
Why didn’t the teacher (or someone in the crowd) intervene?
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
My mother was very manipulative. People who didn't live with her thought she was so nice.
How did they think she was nice if they witnessed her intoxicated screams?
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
She was verbally, emotionally and sometimes physically abusive person.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
My question is --- Do you think my brother's take was the correct one where he said by allowing our mother to abuse us all, our father was protecting us? Or do you think my take on this was that he was enabling her by allowing her to abuse us is correct?
Neither. By allowing abuse (and not encouraging your mother to seek help for her alcoholism and/or divorcing her), your father was a participant in the abuse. In fact, relative to child endangerment laws, it is a crime for persons to willfully permit child abuse.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Living with a malignant narcissist
Education is key; narcissists tend to raise narcissists, and abuse/alcoholism runs in families as well, particularly if one hasn’t worked through their upbringing (with adult eyes) in a healthy way and/or they have a strained relationship with their sibling(s). Your title is written in the present tense, although your post speaks to a (long ago?) past.
Your mother sounds similar to my husband's first wife. She treated their two children differently. She raged against my husband and their daughter but the second the son came home she was sweet as sugar. My stepdaughter attempted suicide multiple times during those years. My husband was on edge constantly and tread lightly when he got home, never knowing how she would be. He did stay to diffuse the negative situations and protect the kids and they are both thankful for that.
My stepdaughter was estranged from her mother for about 10 years after she got married, wanting her mother to get help. She never did. They have finally reconciled to the point where she can have limited contact.
It was difficult during the years they were estranged because my stepson never had to deal with the personal attacks and verbal abuse like his sister did. She controlled my husband with threats and manipulations and he really did try to help her. They also tried counseling multiple times but she always quit after one visit.
I guess my point is that you can be in the same family but have vastly different personal experiences and interpretations of what is going on and how you personally deal with the situations. Thank God everyone made it through. And so sorry for everyone who has to deal daily with someone like that. My stepdaughter was convinced it was Borderline Personality Disorder.
Why didn’t the teacher (or someone in the crowd) intervene?
Times were different then. The only advice a teacher could give was this --- "Leave home as soon as you can and go far away". Now, teachers are mandated reporters and required to report such things to CPS
How did they think she was nice if they witnessed her intoxicated screams?
If you had read my post, you would have noticed that I mentioned that she was very manipulative. She played the victim telling friends that we were all mean to her and never lifted a finger to help her---which was a lie. If she did get drunk around friends, my father would make excuses for her playing it as it was a one off event.
Neither. By allowing abuse (and not encouraging your mother to seek help for her alcoholism and/or divorcing her), your father was a participant in the abuse. In fact, relative to child endangerment laws, it is a crime for persons to willfully permit child abuse.
Again, lots of child abuse went unreported. The thinking at the time was that if the kid didn't have any broken bones, all was well. My cousin (his Dad was my mother's brother) who ended up going to med school, told me that when he was a kid, his father beat him on the back with a switch which left a lot of marks on his back. The next day cousin had to go to the doctor for a physical. He said that the doctor saw his wounds and said nothing. As cousin put it, the doctor's thinking most likely was "this boy comes from a good middle class family" and used that as a justification for saying nothing. My cousin also pointed out that since he is now a doctor, he is a mandated reporter. If he saw a kid with such wounds, he was required by law to report it. How can you say the answer to my question was "neither"?
I posted that I told my brother that our father was just as guilty as our mother
Education is key; narcissists tend to raise narcissists, and abuse/alcoholism runs in families as well, particularly if one hasn’t worked through their upbringing (with adult eyes) in a healthy way and/or they have a strained relationship with their sibling(s). Your title is written in the present tense, although your post speaks to a (long ago?) past.
Your mother sounds similar to my husband's first wife. She treated their two children differently. She raged against my husband and their daughter but the second the son came home she was sweet as sugar. My stepdaughter attempted suicide multiple times during those years. My husband was on edge constantly and tread lightly when he got home, never knowing how she would be. He did stay to diffuse the negative situations and protect the kids and they are both thankful for that.
My stepdaughter was estranged from her mother for about 10 years after she got married, wanting her mother to get help. She never did. They have finally reconciled to the point where she can have limited contact.
It was difficult during the years they were estranged because my stepson never had to deal with the personal attacks and verbal abuse like his sister did. She controlled my husband with threats and manipulations and he really did try to help her. They also tried counseling multiple times but she always quit after one visit.
I guess my point is that you can be in the same family but have vastly different personal experiences and interpretations of what is going on and how you personally deal with the situations. Thank God everyone made it through. And so sorry for everyone who has to deal daily with someone like that. My stepdaughter was convinced it was Borderline Personality Disorder.
Thank you for sharing your husband's story, Kara.
It's good that your husband was able and willing to protect his children. My father allowed my mother to order him around. There were times when she told him us kids needed a beating over something we did. He would always comply. The few rare times he would speak up in our defense, she would end up screaming at him. That's why he prohibited us kids from arguing with her. He was only looking out for himself.
Interesting you should mention counseling --- My mother made a few stabs at counseling due to my aunt (mother's sister) telling her that she needed it. It was always the same---my mother would go maybe 3 or 4 times, then quit. When asked why she quit, she would say "The psychiatrist is an idiot". She called all counselors "psychiatrists". I think she just didn't want to put in the work it took to make changes.
I'm glad that your husband got away from his ex. My parents separated twice. The first time, it was my father who left, then came back 5 months later saying that he couldn't afford to divorce her. The second time, she left. She had a paranoid streak in her and was convinced that a young woman he was mentoring at work was having an affair with him. In the end, she came back. I think she realized that she couldn't survive on her own plus he brought up the whole "I can't afford to divorce her." Truth is, if he really wanted to divorce her, he would have been able to find a way.
I agree---everybody in the family has vastly different personal experiences. The brother, who has since passed, despite him being her favorite child, rarely called my parents when he was out on his own. If it weren't for my SIL, my parents would never have known how my brother was doing.
Again, lots of child abuse went unreported. The thinking at the time was that if the kid didn't have any broken bones, all was well.
My point is the first major federal legislation addressing child abuse and neglect goes back to the seventies. In other words, you must be speaking to fifty+ years ago. That said, education re: your children/grandchildren, if applicable, is still key relative to their psychological health (and your thread title i.e. ‘Living with a Malignant Narcissist’).
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Where we were living at the time, when my mother was drunk and screaming at us, crowds would gather outside the house to listen to her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
My mother was very manipulative. People who didn't live with her thought she was so nice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
If you had read my post, you would have noticed that I mentioned that she was very manipulative. She played the victim telling friends that we were all mean to her and never lifted a finger to help her---which was a lie. If she did get drunk around friends, my father would make excuses for her playing it as it was a one off event.
I did read your post (and actually quoted that part in mine). Again, if folks listened to your mother screaming at you, why would they think she was nice? It’s not as if she could lie her way out of it. Also, if she got drunk with friends on more than one occasion, they’d obviously know it wasn’t a ‘one-off event’. In fact, friends are often aware of a drinking problem long before the abuser is willing to admit it (and they gossip as well), especially if they ‘gathered outside to listen to her’.
^^^^Those who were outside the house listening to her were total strangers. None of them were her friends. Understand now?
She was very careful when around friends. Even the teacher I told about my home life, despite what I had said, met my mother and said to me "Your mother loves you very much." I must have had a look on my face as I thought to myself that my mother fooled yet another person because then the teacher changed her tune. She told me that I had to get away from her.
What can I say? Her friends didn't always see her drunk. It was easy enough for my father to play it off as a rare thing.
When in the 70s exactly did a nationwide law (including territories) get made requiring teachers and doctors to be mandated reporters? There was no such law when I was growing up. Had there been one, I'm sure that the doctor who saw my cousin's wounded back would have reported my uncle.
Since you seem to not understand things about mandated reporting, perhaps the following link will explain how things were back then:
Where we were living at the time, when my mother was drunk and screaming at us, crowds would gather outside the house to listen to her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
^^^^Those who were outside the house listening to her were total strangers. None of them were her friends. Understand now?
Sorry, but I can’t say that I do (understand); total strangers gathered around your house to hear her screaming?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
There was no such law when I was growing up. Had there been one, I'm sure that the doctor who saw my cousin's wounded back would have reported my uncle.
Sorry, but I can’t say that I do (understand); total strangers gathered around your house to hear her screaming?
1974
Yes, total strangers. Our windows were open year round. Our townhouse community was small. Her voice carried. I would be on my way home, about a block away, and someone would tell me "Your mother is yelling again." How I wished I had someplace else where I could go.
Just because this never happened to you or anyone you knew, doesn't mean it never happens at all.
I don't know what else to tell you. My brothers and I were glad that no one we went to school with lived nearby. It was humiliating enough without that aspect which would have made it even worse for us.
Got it now?
Why do you think such a thing is implausible?
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