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Right....A healthy forest has one or two snags (dead, standing trees) and several fallen trees per acre.They provide important micro-habitat for a myriad of micro-orgainisms and larger invertebrates & vertebrates. Dead trees can be used for lumber under some circumstances.
Healthy forests have about 200 trees per acre, so 120,000 trees would be 6000 ac to be cleared...but I think that refers to over all plans, not just this one project on 14 hectares (about 35 ac). Even if that land had suffered tree loss frorm drought & disease, left alone, it would not take long to recover via natural ecological succession-- a better choice than permanently destroying the habitat with a wind farm....
We shouldn't argue taste, so we won't mention how ugly wind turbines are, ruining the vista for miles.
Oh, the irony!!!
Surprisingly, Green party, now in power at national and local level, is NOT opposing this massive destruction of the ancient forest.
The destruction comes at the request of the Green Party, citing the need for more “green” energy as a reason.
They are sacrificing that forest to the gluttony of greedy wind-energy competition...
It's just unbelievable that they are going to cut 120,000 trees to make way for just 20 wind turbines!
Sad.
Well, this is not a news anymore. It started in 2018. In six years nothing has been done to stop that madness.
The plan was first announced in 2013.
BTW...cutting dead trees, due to beetle infestation, that wouldn't be dead if were properly managed!
Screwballs would rather see the earth burn rather than to properly manage the great Lord given resources!
Just out of curiosity - can you tell us how drought and beetle infestations are supposed to be properly managed to protect a 50,000 acres old growth forest?
Just out of curiosity - can you tell us how drought and beetle infestations are supposed to be properly managed to protect a 50,000 acres old growth forest?
.
Leave it alone and quit messing with it.
The planet has been properly managing it for a few billion years
The planet has been properly managing it for a few billion years
As a professional forester for 50 years you answer is incorrect on several levels.
First the planet has NOT been properly managing old growth for a few billion years. I suspect the planet has no concept of land management or old growth.
In North America, humans have been managing the forests since glaciation ended. Indian management was pretty good at providing for their needs. That is why they burned the forests for camas roots, and other fire dependent species and the bonus that management provided in increased deer populations.
We have had an epidemic of trees in our forests. Drought set ups old growth for destructive fires as the epidemic of trees has provided ladder fuels. The beetle infestations have provided additional fuel for hot fires that destroy old growth.
In just two years, 20% of the Giant Sequoia's over six feet in diameter have been killed in wildfires. Those old growth stands will not come back for thousands of years. The science estimate is that in the next 20 yeas probably half the 75 Giant Sequoia groves will be destroyed in the next 20 years.
There is a Forest Service research paper just published that the two years of fires in 2020 and 2021 have destroyed between 10 and 20 percent of sensitive and endangered wildlife species in California.
Two years of large fires and 20 percent of wildlife species GONE.
We burn each year TEN times the number of trees that we harvest. The growth on National Forests, after 39 years of mis-management by environmentalists is NOW NEGATIVE for the first time in their history.
History and future generations will judge the Environmentalists harshly for the destruction of our old growth and forests.
As a professional forester for 50 years you answer is incorrect on several levels.
First the planet has NOT been properly managing old growth for a few billion years. I suspect the planet has no concept of land management or old growth.
In North America, humans have been managing the forests since glaciation ended. Indian management was pretty good at providing for their needs. That is why they burned the forests for camas roots, and other fire dependent species and the bonus that management provided in increased deer populations.
We have had an epidemic of trees in our forests. Drought set ups old growth for destructive fires as the epidemic of trees has provided ladder fuels. The beetle infestations have provided additional fuel for hot fires that destroy old growth.
In just two years, 20% of the Giant Sequoia's over six feet in diameter have been killed in wildfires. Those old growth stands will not come back for thousands of years. The science estimate is that in the next 20 yeas probably half the 75 Giant Sequoia groves will be destroyed in the next 20 years.
There is a Forest Service research paper just published that the two years of fires in 2020 and 2021 have destroyed between 10 and 20 percent of sensitive and endangered wildlife species in California.
Two years of large fires and 20 percent of wildlife species GONE.
We burn each year TEN times the number of trees that we harvest. The growth on National Forests, after 39 years of mis-management by environmentalists is NOW NEGATIVE for the first time in their history.
History and future generations will judge the Environmentalists harshly for the destruction of our old growth and forests.
Can't tell you how nice it is to hear such common sense! So extremely rare!
As a professional forester for 50 years you answer is incorrect on several levels.
First the planet has NOT been properly managing old growth for a few billion years. I suspect the planet has no concept of land management or old growth.
In North America, humans have been managing the forests since glaciation ended. Indian management was pretty good at providing for their needs. That is why they burned the forests for camas roots, and other fire dependent species and the bonus that management provided in increased deer populations.
We have had an epidemic of trees in our forests. Drought set ups old growth for destructive fires as the epidemic of trees has provided ladder fuels. The beetle infestations have provided additional fuel for hot fires that destroy old growth.
In just two years, 20% of the Giant Sequoia's over six feet in diameter have been killed in wildfires. Those old growth stands will not come back for thousands of years. The science estimate is that in the next 20 yeas probably half the 75 Giant Sequoia groves will be destroyed in the next 20 years.
There is a Forest Service research paper just published that the two years of fires in 2020 and 2021 have destroyed between 10 and 20 percent of sensitive and endangered wildlife species in California.
Two years of large fires and 20 percent of wildlife species GONE.
We burn each year TEN times the number of trees that we harvest. The growth on National Forests, after 39 years of mis-management by environmentalists is NOW NEGATIVE for the first time in their history.
History and future generations will judge the Environmentalists harshly for the destruction of our old growth and forests.
Hey 509, I generally agree with most of your posts on this topic and respect your 50 years of forestry as you often mention. With only 18 years contracting with the forest service and Bureau of Indian Affairs and land owners etc. in eastern Washington, N. Idaho & Montana You clearly have more years in the industry than I, but facts & opinions of facts can muddy up the lenses.
1st - Yes, for a few billion years. There would be no old growth forests if 'ol ma nature the planet didn't want them.
You say "Indian management was pretty good at providing for their needs." That is true, as in provided their needs. But not really considered management, more like exploitation. Heck, a good clear cut will increase deer populations.
The epidemic of trees in our forests has been caused by mismanagement by environmentalists, not management. I see you agree.
When I say 'leave it alone and quit messing with it' That is long term thinking and it might take hundreds of years, probably more to correct all the wrong that has been done. Who knows what will happen to the forests with short term thinking 20-30-50 years from now. Man has seldom if ever been good at outsmarting Mother Nature.
If she wants it gone, it's gone.
Just for laughs in a previous post I mentioned George Carlins 'Saving the Planet' It's worth 8 minutes of your life.
Oil wells take out less habitat and don,t kill birds, insects or bats.
OMG! This old trope! Proves you really have no clue and are grasping for things to complain about. You know what kills birds? Housecats. They kill billions every year!
Neither cats nor wind turbines are the only threats birds face. A surprising number of birds die in collisions with stationary manmade objects, especially lighted urban buildings, but also communications towers, which kill millions of migratory birds a year all on their own. Each year many thousands of seabirds are killed as bycatch by commercial fishing operations. Birds are killed by hunters, by invasive exotic species other than cats, and by pesticides. Birds die from the energy extraction industry that wind turbines purport to replace, in oil spills or in toxic coal slurry ponds.
A 2012 study found that wind projects kill 0.269 birds per gigawatt-hour of electricity produced, compared to 5.18 birds killed per gigawatt-hour of electricity from fossil fuel projects.
“When assessing electricity generation technologies, it’s important to evaluate against baseline generation alternatives, because electricity generation is a requirement of modern society,” says Michael Howland, MIT professor of civil and environmental engineering. “Fossil fuels contribute to climate change, increased air pollution, and negative impacts on human and animal health, including birds, among other issues. Wind energy is an electricity generation technology that significantly reduces such environmental and health impacts.”
But yeah, concentrate on wind turbines as some sort of killing machines that are the thing destroying birds and habitat.
it's like saying EVs are bad because they use Cobalt and that means supporting child slave labor in the Congo! Won't someone think of the children? And yet, EVs use almost none anymore (and many, using LFP batteries like Teslas, use zero) while you turn a blind eye to the tonnes of it used in the oil industry to refine gas and diesel to get the sulfur out, the tonnes of it in cell phones and laptops, and even the coatings on drill bits and power tools... NONE of which you complain about child slave labor or even make an effort to not use. If you really cared about child slave labor in the Congo (or birds getting killed) you'd stop using refined gasoline and other fossil fuels, put away your cell phone, and stop using power tools.
Whew! Where to begin?...I know this will be heresy to your religion, BUT--
For the "Cats Kill Birds" lie-- there are about 100,000 households in the US (300M people, 3 to a house) IF each had one cat, in order to kill almost 3M birds each yr, each cat would have to kill almost one bird every week. Sure*..The standard estimate is that there are 20B birds in the country, and it's unusual for a wild bird to !I've more than 2 yrs in the wild,, so we would expect 10B to die anyways each yr-- is that 3M cat prey deaths an extra 3M or just elimination of 3M lame or stupid birds that should be thinned from the herd (flock?) anyways....Give it a rest.
https://windmillskill.com/blog/wind-...-hidden-public It's well known that bird kill stats for wind turbines are being manipulated by the govt. Govt figures fall way short of non-gov data....Turbines also kill bats and insects.
You're right. I can't argue with MIT, that bastion of liberal psudo-science. You re naivete is showing. Since the mid-70s when the EPA started its Draconian assault on "air quality" there have Indeed been notable improvements in various parameters of air quality, but during this time rates of asthma and COPD have skyrocketed (look it up yourself). ...So much for improved health and the credibility of your exalted MIT source.
....and you call me a hypocrite by telling me so on your computer....???
* I live in a rural location. My four barn cats are excellent mousers, ie- good killers. My bird feeding stations attract over 2000 sorties of birds daily and the cats regularly stalk the area-- maybe they kill three birds a year total between them.
PS/...Do you have any idea how they came to their figures in that chart? What a joke. They may as well just admit they make the numbers up I stead of giving convoluted exp!stations as if they're practicing real scientific methods. They chose some very small area. Count dead bodies, then extrapolate that as if the entire country was under those same conditions.....The classic is the "proof" that bird populations are plummetting-- body counts on the sidewalks below Chicago shyscrspers are much lower now than they were 50 y/a....but the fail to acknowledge that land use changes draws fewer birds along that migration path now. Chicago "ended" 10 mi north of The Loop 50y/a and farms & woods took over for the next 90miles....Now, the urban land use continues until you get 10 mi north of Milwaukee....(I'm not denying that wildlife populations are under pressure, but it's habitat loss that"s the problem, not "pollution.")
Get all the facts, not just the crap you get from the Ladies Home Journal, NYT or Cosmopolitan before you form your opinions.
Last edited by guidoLaMoto; Today at 04:12 PM..
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