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I think there's a good reason why Lay Buddhists don't care much about Nibanna (other than giving it lip service). I got to know the Thai Theravada monks at my local temple very well over several years, and again, they were Thai citizens here temporarily serving at this temple in Colorado Springs. After the evening meditation and chanting, which I was invited to attend, we would always sit on the floor and talk about 'Buddhist stuff'. One evening I asked, "Do any of you think you'll achieve Nibanna at the end of your current life?" The abbot chuckled. "Oh no, maybe twenty or thirty lives down the road". Most human being can't think...literally cannot think...many lifetimes down the road. We can't think many days down the road most of the time.
You and I have a different view of what Kamma is. Your view is in the majority. I often describe it as thinking there is a "celestial justice system". My view of Kamma is simply cause and effect. Hang around bad people, bad things will happen. Hang around good people, better things will happen. Do bad deeds, get in trouble. Do good deeds, earn respect. And my view -- in my opinion -- does explain why the justice system involved in the generally accepted view of Kamma is so very, very uneven. And I should add that the idea that one can suddenly suffer from bad Kamma several lifetimes later is silly mysticism.
But that's just me.
Your experience of Lay Buddhists and monks matches mine. About Kamma (or Karma as it gets said here) the cause and effect is ok, but that is just how natural stuff works. Getting your car checked regularly means it will probably keep running, but neglect it and it'll probably seize up. But that is how the world works, not some Cosmic scheme of Justice, Judgement and piling up merit and demerit that determines your rebirth. That requires some discrimination and organisation. In fact a deity, in charge of a spiritual system, or it is a very hit and miss system.Or so it seems to me.
Your experience of Lay Buddhists and monks matches mine. About Kamma (or Karma as it gets said here) the cause and effect is ok, but that is just how natural stuff works. Getting your car checked regularly means it will probably keep running, but neglect it and it'll probably seize up. But that is how the world works, not some Cosmic scheme of Justice, Judgement and piling up merit and demerit that determines your rebirth. That requires some discrimination and organisation. In fact a deity, in charge of a spiritual system, or it is a very hit and miss system.Or so it seems to me.
Yes.
Perhaps there's a difference between 'getting wrapped up in Buddhism' and 'living (verb) Buddhism'.
Along with the discovery of anti-matter and dark matter , recently we have discovered " doesn't matter " which appears to have no effect on on the universe whatsoever ...
Along with the discovery of anti-matter and dark matter , recently we have discovered " doesn't matter " which appears to have no effect on on the universe whatsoever ...
Along with the discovery of anti-matter and dark matter , recently we have discovered " doesn't matter " which appears to have no effect on on the universe whatsoever ...
I love it. The atheist afterlife is evidenced as the Cosmos is actually made of 'Doesn't Matter'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Yes.
Perhaps there's a difference between 'getting wrapped up in Buddhism' and 'living (verb) Buddhism'.
I'm reminded of the DeBotton initiative, which is now otherwise forgotten and appeared to be an attempt to find relevance for the Church in a world that seemed to be heading towards irreligion. It was proposing the therapeutic effect of religion, prayer, Christian morals, etc, without the ritual trappings, or, it seemed, doctrines.
This is rather what I took from Buddhism. The Life lessons and meditation methods, but not the Dogma which didn't stack up for me. Even the 'religious tourism' as a poster here once said I was doing. Like Christianity, we can find the baby (not perhaps the one they hoped to find) and discard the bathwater.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-13-2023 at 08:22 AM..
Given that Buddhism thread is really for Buddhists to discuss rather than skeptics to parachute in and cause trouble, the Self in Buddhism has always been a problem and people tend to think there is one, nevermind Buddhist dogma teaches there isn't. Tzaph has something worth saying about the reality of the Self (the soul) especially as, if, there isn't one, what gets reincarnated that is essentially "You"? I'm looking for some evidence for, what she claims, rather than slapping her down.
there are threads in the Buddhism forum on this, here are a couple by name. Feel free to peruse.
Vedantic Self and Buddhist Non-Self
If there is no self, why are we reincarnated?
If you (generic you, not directed at any single person posting) are looking for evidence, the Buddhist path is to do the practice. Not demand others spoon feed your penchant for discord. For those who are afflicted by over-intellectualizing an effective resource is use of Zen koans. "Logic is not the goal here. A koan is unsurpassed for breaking asunder the mind of ignorance and opening the eye of truth.”
I don't want to turn this into a debate or Buddhism - busting thread, but the appeal to forget logic and just do Koans or the Aum -stuff is jusrt like the mindbending methods of Christian evangelism to get people to brainwash themselves into that mental state called Godfaith.
It's the individual choice. But a claim that such mindbending practices lead to truth rather than a state of self -delusion requires that a counter theory be put. It is a choice, but there is more than one choice.
I don't want to turn this into a debate or Buddhism - busting thread, but the appeal to forget logic and just do Koans or the Aum -stuff is jusrt like the mindbending methods of Christian evangelism to get people to brainwash themselves into that mental state called Godfaith.
It's the individual choice. But a claim that such mindbending practices lead to truth rather than a state of self -delusion requires that a counter theory be put. It is a choice, but there is more than one choice.
I don't want to turn this into a debate or Buddhism - busting thread, but the appeal to forget logic and just do Koans or the Aum -stuff is jusrt like the mindbending methods of Christian evangelism to get people to brainwash themselves into that mental state called Godfaith.
It's the individual choice. But a claim that such mindbending practices lead to truth rather than a state of self -delusion requires that a counter theory be put. It is a choice, but there is more than one choice.
Buddhism is not a theory. Buddhist practice is not a theory.
nor is it an argument, evangelism, brainwashing, claim, or self-delusion.
Buddhism is not a theory. Buddhist practice is not a theory.
nor is it an argument, evangelism, brainwashing, claim, or self-delusion.
I'm sure we all are thankful for your lecture on a religion that you are not a part of.
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Like Christianity, we can find the baby (not perhaps the one they hoped to find) and discard the bathwater.
