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I think one of the problems Vermont is facing is increasing taxes (including property taxes), increased housing costs, general cost of living, etc. Which should make Vermonters part of the "Most Happy In The World" crowd.
Yet look at the stats over the years for crime rates, drug addiction, etc. in some Vermont towns and cities, including Brattleboro. Which might suggest Vermonters may be faced with "The Deal People Have In Places Where There Are No Taxes".
Do you see any troubling juxtaposed dichotomy taking place here?
Vermont is two states. The one the wealthy elitists moving here live in, and the other where the less affluent live, many of them from long time VT families. The elitists are living in places like Woodstock or Shelburne or Montpelier and so forth, going to fancy restaurants, ski areas, etc., and many of them get involved in politics for something to do. The other half of the state is eking out a living in crumbling rundown homes or, even, as I have neighbors doing, living in buses, vans, campers, etc. VPR just did a series that is relevant to this conversation. https://www.vermontpublic.org/tags/what-class-are-you
For a "progressive" state the labor laws in VT are as backwards as most compared to European counterparts, the taxation system relies heavily on regressive property taxes, and wages run lower than some nearby states. And with those problems come the drugs and crime like Brattleboro is experiencing. My own town in the NEK has more crime than you will ever read about, but unless you're wealthy the police (state only) are unlikely to respond. Three times I've called the police for bad situations at my place, never once could they send anyone. Even when I had literally a convoy of drunk and armed off roaders trespassing and making threats. Most of my neighbors won't even bother calling the police anymore, no one's coming.
For all the bitching I read here about my state, I have to say I generally disagree. I spend half my time down south in various bible belt areas, quite a bit of time in Desantis land too. Where all the people scream about about liberal Vermont, Bernie and how we have high taxes and no Freedom, they love freedom down there. Truth is so many of those places are complete dumps, full of uneducated angry folks. Lots of poverty, great divides from the wealthy and poor. It is cheaper to live, true. But wages less then what you get at the low end in VT. Plus those states work so hard to make themselves as aesthetically unappealing as possible. Billboards, strip malls, housing developments based on military barracks. The political scene in the far right areas is so brutal and ugly. Makes my stomach hurt. I had the chance to switch my residence to Florida as I owned a home there. I would have escaped state income taxes, and been able to escape significant capital gains taxes. I just couldn't do it. I'd rather give my money to Vermont then claim residence in a state I find appalling in so many ways. When I come back to Vermont it is always so much kinder in its politics. Vermont's worst is the souths best. I am generally supportive of a socialized agenda. I have been here since the 1970's and the state seems better to me today then it did back then. People complain about the property tax but it is a progressive tax. If you are genuinely poor the state is pretty good about giving you a hand with reduced costs in property taxes, medical aid and fuel assistance. It is a much more equitable place to live then most, which is why the wealthy have some issues with it. The one issue I here about and do agree with is the general homeless/drug/crime issues. Now, these issues are in many places so it is not unique to VT. I do think though in this area we could be more tough love than love. I drove a cab for awhile in Brattleboro and I drove a lot of junkies to the methadone clinic, I picked them up at the hotels the state put them in, I drove the dealers to the hotel where the addicts were. I don't hate any of those people but I will pass judgement on them that 95% were complete losers, going nowhere, sucking off the system, making no effort to progress. Personally if I owned that town they would all get a free ride to the state border and sent on their way. It is a great ideal to think we are helping these folks but in reality we are enabling them and the whole industry. I don't want to arrest these folks, don't care what drug you want to do, but it shouldn't be easy and comfortable to continue the practice at tax payers expense.
I agree with you. I've lived 7 years in Central Illinois, my wife is from SF, has family in Georgia and South Carolina Vermont to me looks better and is more desirable to any of these places, including SF. Of course it's not an utopia, but I think it's much, much better than anything I've seen on this continent.
Much of this country is bordering on being an earthly hell so VT (along with NH and ME in my view) looks very good in some ways but is not immune from what's happening around us. It's creeping in as the rise in crime is showing.
Personally if I owned that town they would all get a free ride to the state border and sent on their way.
This notion is exactly the problem. Plenty of states ship their problems to others and wash their hands of it. The number of one way bus tickets given to people to California, Oregon, and a few others states over the last few decades is staggering. Yet, while places like California receive them, then those other states point fingers at California and complain about how they have such problems. Many, if not most, of those problems aren't home grown in California (or wherever).
Communities need to step up and address the problems they are fundamentally contributing to, not try to push the problems off on others. There is so much research on why people turn to drugs, how to keep them away from that path, and how to help them have successful lives. We just don't want to do it, because, taxes are baaad and "socialism" (which means anything that helps anyone) is bad.
VT is know for its town councils and lively democracy. Maybe it's time that the people start organizing themselves, but that would suppose having REAL communities in which people care about each other, not just poor people on one side, rich guys in secondary homes from NYC on the other side.
Yes, this ^^^ Holding on to that stubborn Yankee spirit and independence with a loud public voice, not allowing the rich newcomers to change, water down or break that spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader
The elitists are living in places like Woodstock or Shelburne or Montpelier and so forth, going to fancy restaurants, ski areas, etc., and many of them get involved in politics for something to do.
Yup, and when the smell of the sheep on the farm next door spoils their outdoor cocktail party, they attempt to pass zoning laws to get rid of the sheep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcticjomesteader
Three times I've called the police for bad situations at my place, never once could they send anyone. Even when I had literally a convoy of drunk and armed off roaders trespassing and making threats. Most of my neighbors won't even bother calling the police anymore, no one's coming.
Although I've never done it, I was once told by someone who used to be in law enforcement that if you want the police to show up, you need to say "I'm afraid for my life" to express the level of danger you feel you are in. I would imagine this would have additional effectiveness with armed individuals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by squarpeg
If you are genuinely poor the state is pretty good about giving you a hand with reduced costs in property taxes, medical aid and fuel assistance. It is a much more equitable place to live then most, which is why the wealthy have some issues with it.
Unfortunately this may be a problem with Vermont possibly being targeted by certain populations as a "Sanctuary State". I had read somewhere that some of the "less ambitious" Woodstock Hippie counterculture types were relocating to the Brattleboro area from other states for the assistance and support Brattleboro and Vermont offer along with an already "in place" drug friendly/counterculture type population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by squarepeg
we could be more tough love than love.
I drove a cab for awhile in Brattleboro and I drove a lot of junkies to the methadone clinic, I picked them up at the hotels the state put them in, I drove the dealers to the hotel where the addicts were. I don't hate any of those people but I will pass judgement on them that 95% were complete losers, going nowhere, sucking off the system, making no effort to progress. Personally if I owned that town they would all get a free ride to the state border and sent on their way. It is a great ideal to think we are helping these folks but in reality we are enabling them and the whole industry. I don't want to arrest these folks, don't care what drug you want to do, but it shouldn't be easy and comfortable to continue the practice at tax payers expense.
Yes, more tough, less love. Your describing a full circle self perpetuating criminal drug addiction problem and population supported by the taxpayers, and now the murder rate is apparently going up.
Again, don't let the wealthy newcomers bring their problems with them, live an insular life at the expense of generations of local Vermonters, and slowly wear away and deteriorate that Yankee ingenuity, resolve, self sufficiency, and spirit.
Beautiful example of crippling individualism. So you "are forced" to pay for medicare and SS, and I bet you think you're forced to pay for road maintenance, you're forced to pay for a military that keep you kind of safe for now, until the Chinese decide otherwise, you're forced to pay for many thing in a country in which 337 million people have decided to live together. Let's see, what else are you forced to pay for?
This kind of talk is only heard on this side of the Atlantic. Childish, ridiculous. People not understanding why we have to pool money together to achieve anything. I've seen the deal people have in places where there are no taxes, you wouldn't hold there for 2 days, trust me. I guess you're the kind of guy who paves his own road everywhere he goes, you have your own police. When you travel you have your own airport, right?
So how come most people in industrialized nations, some of them ranked the most happy in the world, have no problem paying taxes, but you do. This is what is taking this country down, that kind of behavior, and if you think this has nothing to do because Americans rank so low in happiness index and are so lonely without any friends, you'd be seriously mistaken. You're just a beautiful self-made island of success, uh? You own nothing to anybody and certainly not to the collective.
Look in the mirror before you talk down to me or anyone else on this forum sir. This forum is falling apart because of people that continually mock others. You stated that Social Security and Medicare were a form of welfare. Everything else you added to boost your ego and be critical of me was never mentioned but I will state that I do not like seeing my tax dollars spent like it falls off trees. I work very hard and when my husband passed away I could have taken hand outs from other hard working taxpayers but didn't. I got off my ass and went to work after being retired for almost 20 years. VT is one of the highest taxed states in this nation but if you aren't getting paid via the taxpayers, it is very hard to make ends meet.
I paid into Social Security and Medicare most of my life so the gov't isn't handing me anything I didn't work for. They are giving my money back to me. Do you understand that?
I'm sure everyone doesn't have a problem with their taxes being spent on the upkeep of the state but that is where it should go. I am witness to people abusing the system and that should end but never will. I don't feel people should be getting $7,000. raises at the taxpayers expense when inflation is at an all time high.
Vermonters keep blaming newcomers for the problems in this state, I agree to a point, but they have to take the blame also because who is voting for these newcomers? At lot of people just vote down the line for their party instead of doing the research on who they are voting for. Do you look over the Bills that our Reps are trying to pass? I do and it is appalling. Until people start contacting the sponsors of the Bills they don't want passed, they are just as much at fault. So if you find what I just wrote to be "childish and ridiculous", my advice is to not read or respond to my posts from this point on.
Location: northern Vermont - previously NM, WA, & MA
10,754 posts, read 23,832,257 times
Reputation: 14671
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYLIER
Look in the mirror before you talk down to me or anyone else on this forum sir. This forum is falling apart because of people that continually mock others. You stated that Social Security and Medicare were a form of welfare. Everything else you added to boost your ego and be critical of me was never mentioned but I will state that I do not like seeing my tax dollars spent like it falls off trees. I work very hard and when my husband passed away I could have taken hand outs from other hard working taxpayers but didn't. I got off my ass and went to work after being retired for almost 20 years. VT is one of the highest taxed states in this nation but if you aren't getting paid via the taxpayers, it is very hard to make ends meet.
I paid into Social Security and Medicare most of my life so the gov't isn't handing me anything I didn't work for. They are giving my money back to me. Do you understand that?
I'm sure everyone doesn't have a problem with their taxes being spent on the upkeep of the state but that is where it should go. I am witness to people abusing the system and that should end but never will. I don't feel people should be getting $7,000. raises at the taxpayers expense when inflation is at an all time high.
Vermonters keep blaming newcomers for the problems in this state, I agree to a point, but they have to take the blame also because who is voting for these newcomers? At lot of people just vote down the line for their party instead of doing the research on who they are voting for. Do you look over the Bills that our Reps are trying to pass? I do and it is appalling. Until people start contacting the sponsors of the Bills they don't want passed, they are just as much at fault. So if you find what I just wrote to be "childish and ridiculous", my advice is to not read or respond to my posts from this point on.
NYLIER, this post gave me pause. As you know, we've been at odds in other threads and though I don't often agree with your political philosophy, I want to respectfully apologize for judging you based on what I didn't understand in previous posts. I'll own up to that. I have difficulty reconciling politics on the far left and far right, can't stand extremes at either end and we are living in strange times. But nonetheless you deserve as much respect as anyone else, even if we don't often agree.
And you make some fair points here that aren't based on left or right narratives but fair critical thinking. I do think teachers are underpaid, but that shouldn't always translate carte blanche and rubber stamp bills without critically accounting for other aspects in a city or town's budget.
I'd prefer to engage in more civil discourse and improve the dialogue in this sub-forum and once again, I genuinely apologize.
NYLIER, this post gave me pause. As you know, we've been at odds in other threads and though I don't often agree with your political philosophy, I want to respectfully apologize for judging you based on what I didn't understand in previous posts. I'll own up to that. I have difficulty reconciling politics on the far left and far right, can't stand extremes at either end and we are living in strange times. But nonetheless you deserve as much respect as anyone else, even if we don't often agree.
And you make some fair points here that aren't based on left or right narratives but fair critical thinking. I do think teachers are underpaid, but that shouldn't always translate carte blanche and rubber stamp bills without critically accounting for other aspects in a city or town's budget.
I'd prefer to engage in more civil discourse and improve the dialogue in this sub-forum and once again, I genuinely apologize.
Wow, apology not necessary but truly appreciated. I totally agree with you about the extremes of politics on both sides. Honestly, I find both parties in Vermont too extreme for me to support. I have always swayed to the right, but in VT, I am very careful to research who I am voting for. Red flags went up in my head when I saw Vote for Terry Williams signs around town. It was a good thing I did my research because I would have kicked myself in the butt if I voted for him. They will not get my vote if they go too far right. I'm also a Trump supporter, but I'm keeping my eye on Kennedy. He doesn't seem so extreme but I have a lot to learn about him and DeSantis, if he runs. What I'm saying is I don't vote down the line, I vote for who I feel is a good fit for how I want to see this country move forward.
Now, as far as education in VT, we definitely will never agree. But that's okay. It may have something to do with where we live.
I really do appreciate your post. Not too many people on here would say what you did publicly. You truly have my respect. Thank you so much.
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