Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
OP, I did a sleep study many years ago and was told I have a "non-restorative sleep disorder" (no apnea). I've been this way since childhood and any day I wake up feeling refreshed and restored is a rarity. I've done all the OTC meds, I've done delta-8, I've done Effexor, Lunesta, Ambien (shudder, dreadful side affect), Trazadone, and on my last dr appointment I asked for a weeks worth of Temazepam to try out. I've probably missed listing one or two more drugs. NONE of it does much more than put me to sleep faster. NONE of it keeps me asleep more than three to four hours at a go. None of it makes me FEEL rested. Brain fog and memory issues are familiar problems.
Of the drugs I have tried I do the best with the trazadone, because my dr prescribed the lowest dosage and I am allowed to adjust the number of pills I take. I will sometimes take a second pill after I wake the first time and sleep for an additional three or four hours. Additionally I use blackout curtains to keep my room dim, and I use black screen videos of rain or other soothing noise to block distractions. On a side note an interesting article- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...sner%20et%20al.
Do you have "crash days"? As I have gotten older I find I generally go on three to four hours of sleep a night for a week or two, and then I spend a day or so "crashing", where I sleep for a few hours, wake for a few hours, rinse and repeat the cycles throughout a twelve to sixteen hour period. It doesn't refresh me but it does keep me going (barely) from week to week.
Roughly a decade ago I spent a lot of time researching the various sleep aids/drugs that were on the market and it seems that the majority of them are simply aids to help in falling asleep, not staying asleep or getting restful sleep. At the time there was a drug company researching the problem, but after trying to follow that news for several years and not seeing anything encouraging I gave up tracking it. Don't know if anything ever came of it but since I haven't read of any sort of big break throughs in this area in the last several years I feel that it never really got off the ground. From a 2022 article about unrefreshing sleep- https://www.verywellhealth.com/unref...yndrome-716108
Thank you very much this is very interesting and helpful. I have been a poor sleeper all my life. ALL my life , I can remember even as a kid crying and begging my mother to help me sleep. I'll read your links and look more into it.
My doc rejected trazadone because she felt it wouldn't help for long (I did take amitriptyline in my 40s)
My "crash days" are pretty much the entire weekend these days, unless I have something planned with a friend, which I do less and less of because I simply cannot get through the work week unless I spend the entire weekend resting. I don't sleep even then, just rest, read and doze off now and then while I read. With the exception I do have my hike in the woods each weekend day. During the week I do my walk in my own back yard. 2 miles in the early morning and 2 miles at lunch time.
I have other health problems besides insomnia, things I've also always had but are worse now. MCS - Multiple Chemical Sensitivity aka known as Environmental illness, which gets worse and worse and worse with each passing day, prolonged exposure to chemicals or certain dust or noise or stress usually leads to a fibromyalgia attack. Along with this is sensory intolerance to just about everything. Lighting, noise, smells, touch, taste..I am affected by everything and feel assaulted the moment I step out my door, all day long.
I've had all this for years, my whole life really, but it has gotten much worse in the past 3 years. I have my own theory why but won't bring it up here, so as not to derail the thread. I also have a heart condition that came on at the beginning of February. I do not have blocked arteries, this has to do with the muscle and stress.
I feel that when I retire a lot of this will go away. Not the environmental illness and sensory intolerance, I've always had that, but at least I will be able to have more control over my exposure. When I am at work I have no choice, I have to stay there, I can't leave when they paint or lay carpet or knock out walls. The stress and illness leads to fibromyalgia, but with no sick leave left, I can't come home at all. I can't help wondering, if I actually had restorative sleep every night, if these things would not have such a negative effect on me. So I asked for pills.
With the major reduction in my stress level, and the ability to sleep myself out, perhaps I can hope for a brighter, pill free, future. But that is 17 months away. I've got to get through this part first. And sleeping pills seem like my last desperate hope to do it.
Last edited by catsmom21; 05-11-2024 at 06:17 AM..
I usually get a total of about 5-hours of sleep a night, sometimes 4 and sometimes 6, if lucky. I have tried a lot of the so-called natural things, such as melatonin, to help my sleep, to little effect. I really do not want to start relying on medication to sort-out my sleep-issues.
I have tried the "be in bed for 8 or so hours to get extra sleep" and find it more stressful than beneficial, rarely getting any extra sleep in the process. Say I go to bed at 7pm and plan on getting out of bed at 4am, 9-hours in bed, so in theory I may get 7-hours of good sleep. NOPE, does not work that way, I go to bed at 7pm and end up waking-up at 1am, UGH! Then trying to stay in bed, awake, for another 3-hours.......that to me is worse than getting too little sleep, especially if it is happening every dang night.
What I do now is accept that I cannot sleep anywhere near 8-hours, and plan on getting out of bed at 3am. This is a lot better for me, I go to bed at say 9pm, when I can no longer keep my eyes open, and wake at 2:30am, sleeping most of that time then lying in bed for only 1/2 an hour, much better.
Some species are diurnal. Chickens wake up at dawn and return to the coup at dusk. Owls do just the opposite. Their genetic make up determines this.....H.sapiens in the natural state is more like cats-- sleep a few hours, then go chase mice for a few hours, then take another cat nap etc etc.
It's only since the invention of the electric !ight and the change from farm work to factory shift work that we have tried to force ourselves Into the strictly diurnal pattern...For many of us, it ain't working out real well. We don't really have a sleep problem, we have a scheduling problem.
If you're retired and don't have obligations on your time, go with the flow. Sleep when your body says it's sleepy, and stay awake when it says it's awake.
If you don't have that luxury, it's more difficult to deal with. Newer sleeping pills (Ambien, Lunesta etc) don't give you sleep, they give you amnesia. You literally forget that you tossed and turned all night. That explains all the reports of people driving cars and not knowing they were doing it etc.
Younger people work hard and are exhausted by bed time. They sleep thru the night. Older folk often wake up fully every two hours as they come up out of the depths of the two hour sleep cycles (REM sleep etc) After 4 or 6 hrs of sleep, it can be tough to go back to sleep. Go with flow. Just get up.. Don't fight it. It:s not like you'll never sleep again.
Adapt to the things you can't change.
I'm glad you pointed this out, Guido. I only learned about this a couple years ago. Humans commonly had bi-phasic sleep until the invention of electric lights. They would get up, go visit, have sex, talk and be social for a couple hours, then go back for "Part 2" sleep. Between the 2 phases they got 8 hours total.
When we don't have our marijuana brownies, this is how it is for us. Go to bed at 10:00 and wake back up at 2, 3 or 4:00 a.m. Read in bed (Kindles, so no lights) until dawn, then go back to sleep until 9:00 or so. But if one is working, that's not feasible.
I know OP said she used marijuana, but how? Maybe you didn't take enough. I make brownies that use 10 grams for 24 pieces which lasts us about 2 weeks. When we tried commercial "gummies", we felt nothing and still couldn't sleep. With brownies, we sleep straight through, not even getting up to pee.
I live in dread of someday they won't be as effective. Before brownies, I tried tapping (EFT) and melatonin but nada. I think I am too cynical for tapping, lol. Sleeping pills are not something we embrace.
Wishing you the best, OP. Insomnia was really bad for our vacation!
Ambien isn't addictive. You can become dependent on it, but that's not the same thing as addiction. If you were addicted, you'd need to take it even when you're not trying to sleep. It's not that kind of drug. I take the generic, and I've been taking the max dose for 7 years. Every night, without fail. I'm grateful that I don't have side-effects other than failing typing skills when it starts to kick in (which it's doing now, at 10:33pm, since it's bedtime).
I went to a sleep specialist who told me as long as I didn't need more than the prescribed dose, I can take it indefinitely. Since I'm a chronic insomniac, I plan on taking it indefinitely.
I now sleep between 5 and 9 hours of sleep every night, wake up well-rested and ready to start my day. The reason it's such a broad window is simply because sometimes I have things that weigh heavy on my mind that make me "not tired" at bedtime, even after taking the med. Like when my mom died. That was a 5-hour sleep night.
Check with a sleep specialist, who can monitor your weaning off Lunesta and on to Zolpidem. If you have any bad side effects, they'll show up within the first couple of days taking it. If it doesn't work, you'll know the very first night.
Ambien isn't addictive. You can become dependent on it, but that's not the same thing as addiction. If you were addicted, you'd need to take it even when you're not trying to sleep. It's not that kind of drug. I take the generic, and I've been taking the max dose for 7 years. Every night, without fail. I'm grateful that I don't have side-effects other than failing typing skills when it starts to kick in (which it's doing now, at 10:33pm, since it's bedtime).
I went to a sleep specialist who told me as long as I didn't need more than the prescribed dose, I can take it indefinitely. Since I'm a chronic insomniac, I plan on taking it indefinitely.
I now sleep between 5 and 9 hours of sleep every night, wake up well-rested and ready to start my day. The reason it's such a broad window is simply because sometimes I have things that weigh heavy on my mind that make me "not tired" at bedtime, even after taking the med. Like when my mom died. That was a 5-hour sleep night.
Check with a sleep specialist, who can monitor your weaning off Lunesta and on to Zolpidem. If you have any bad side effects, they'll show up within the first couple of days taking it. If it doesn't work, you'll know the very first night.
Thank you for sharing your experience with sleeping pills, which is what I was hoping for with this thread. Ambien is classified as addictive/habit forming. I was under the impression that Lunesta is not, but the more I read the more I am being disabused of that notion. Rozerem (ramelteon) is supposedly non-habit forming but apparently isn't as effective. I asked my doc for either Lunesta or Rozerem and she decided Lunesta would be better.
When I took the anti-depressant amitriptyline for sleep in my 40s the 5mg a night dose was effective for several years, and for the first time in my life I experienced what it was like to feel rested from a good night's sleep. I slept 5-6 hours straight most nights and it was a miracle. But the effects wore off after about 3 years, and when my then doc suggested doubling the dose I decided to go off it instead, because of the memory problems associated with long term use. Elavil (amitriptyline) is a level 4 for memory loss, which is high. So I tapered myself off it. The withdrawal was rough even as slowly as I tapered but I got through it, and went back to my usual insomniac ways. I miss the sleep, but not the worry about memory loss.
That was all 20 years ago and I've been struggling along since then with a good night here and there and mostly bad, until the past few months when the insomnia, combined with anxiety and new health issues has become so severe and extreme.
My current doc rejected trazadone (the other antidepressant used for sleep aid) for me at this time because being an antidepressant like the amitriptyline it takes weeks to months to kick in, the effect wears off after a while and the dose has to be increased, and/or then it takes weeks or months to go off it after. The Lunesta is meant for short term, to help me get to a point where I don't need it, as I learn other ways to help myself.
I don't react in common ways to most drugs and I am finding that with the Lunesta (generic) as well. I'm still trying to find my way with this medication.
Thank you for sharing your experience with sleeping pills, which is what I was hoping for with this thread. Ambien is classified as addictive/habit forming. I was under the impression that Lunesta is not, but the more I read the more I am being disabused of that notion. Rozerem (ramelteon) is supposedly non-habit forming but apparently isn't as effective. I asked my doc for either Lunesta or Rozerem and she decided Lunesta would be better.
When I took the anti-depressant amitriptyline for sleep in my 40s the 5mg a night dose was effective for several years, and for the first time in my life I experienced what it was like to feel rested from a good night's sleep. I slept 5-6 hours straight most nights and it was a miracle. But the effects wore off after about 3 years, and when my then doc suggested doubling the dose I decided to go off it instead, because of the memory problems associated with long term use. Elavil (amitriptyline) is a level 4 for memory loss, which is high. So I tapered myself off it. The withdrawal was rough even as slowly as I tapered but I got through it, and went back to my usual insomniac ways. I miss the sleep, but not the worry about memory loss.
That was all 20 years ago and I've been struggling along since then with a good night here and there and mostly bad, until the past few months when the insomnia, combined with anxiety and new health issues has become so severe and extreme.
My current doc rejected trazadone (the other antidepressant used for sleep aid) for me at this time because being an antidepressant like the amitriptyline it takes weeks to months to kick in, the effect wears off after a while and the dose has to be increased, and/or then it takes weeks or months to go off it after. The Lunesta is meant for short term, to help me get to a point where I don't need it, as I learn other ways to help myself.
I don't react in common ways to most drugs and I am finding that with the Lunesta (generic) as well. I'm still trying to find my way with this medication.
I've been taking Ambien since 1989, every night. I used to do a lot of international travel when I needed to go to sleep on the local time wherever I found myself. Am I addicted? I don't care if I am because I have a good night sleep most every night, and my doctor doesn't worry about it either as he is the one prescribing me the pills. I am aware that the strength of the medicine has decreased, but it still helps. I'm in my late 70s, so I don't really care about what other people happen to think about my medications, or most anything else for that matter.
Sleep to me is essential so I do what I have to do. Perhaps you could do the same. Or not.
You're not supposed to use sleep aids every night. That goes for Lunesta. Also, Lunesta tends not to work if NOT taken on an empty stomach, or 2 hrs. after a meal. YMMV, but that's what doctors say, and I've found it to be true.
I think you should get a full endocrine check. Have you discussed hormone replacement with your doctor? Progesterone and estrogen are sleep hormones. Progesterone prepares the body for sleep at the end of the day, and estrogen keeps you asleep so you don't have the 3 a.m. wakeup that's common to women over a certain age. If you can't use estrogen because you've been estrogen-dominant all your life, progesterone will work. The trick is finding a doctor willing to prescribe it. A lot of doctors refuse to provide it for older patients with insomnia.
Women's progesterone actually crashes in the final years of peri-menopause. I've read posts on C-D by women from around the developed world that said, their doctors prescribed it for them for sleep during peri-menopause. I wish we had doctors like that in the US.
OP, it seems that in some ways, you're not neuro-typical, in that you react differently than most patients to some meds. And your insomnia's pretty severe. Would you by any chance be a thyroid patient? If you don't know, you should include a thyroid panel with the endocrine test mentioned above. Thyroid governs sleep, and thyroid disease causes an imbalance or deficiency in the sleep hormones.
You're not supposed to use sleep aids every night. That goes for Lunesta. Also, Lunesta tends not to work if NOT taken on an empty stomach, or 2 hrs. after a meal. YMMV, but that's what doctors say, and I've found it to be true.
I think you should get a full endocrine check. Have you discussed hormone replacement with your doctor? Progesterone and estrogen are sleep hormones. Progesterone prepares the body for sleep at the end of the day, and estrogen keeps you asleep so you don't have the 3 a.m. wakeup that's common to women over a certain age. If you can't use estrogen because you've been estrogen-dominant all your life, progesterone will work. The trick is finding a doctor willing to prescribe it. A lot of doctors refuse to provide it for older patients with insomnia.
Women's progesterone actually crashes in the final years of peri-menopause. I've read posts on C-D by women from around the developed world that said, their doctors prescribed it for them for sleep during peri-menopause. I wish we had doctors like that in the US.
OP, it seems that in some ways, you're not neuro-typical, in that you react differently than most patients to some meds. And your insomnia's pretty severe. Would you by any chance be a thyroid patient? If you don't know, you should include a thyroid panel with the endocrine test mentioned above. Thyroid governs sleep, and thyroid disease causes an imbalance or deficiency in the sleep hormones.
People who have *chronic* insomnia will disagree with you about your very first sentence. I've been an insomniac since puberty, and I'm post-menopausal now so no - it's not hormones causing it. My options: take meds and sleep, or not take meds and not sleep. My thyroid is regulated by meds and a yearly full thyroid panel, because I had half of it removed when I was 30 - more than 15 years after I developed chronic insomnia, and over 30 years ago.
I have no other internal medical problems, or neurological problems. My grandmother was also a life-long insomniac, but she chose to suffer without sleep.
While sleep meds aren't prescribed for long-term use, that is -because- they're habit-forming. However, sleep is also habit-forming. But without sleep, our health can suffer. If meds are all that works, and you're not developing other medical problems by using them, then you do what works.
Again - I can have the habit of not sleeping, or I can have the habit of sleeping. I've chosen to sleep at night, and for me, personally, Ambien (zolpidem) is what allows that to happen. I'll trust my sleep-study doctor and my primary care physician, over a stranger on the internet.
I've been taking Ambien since 1989, every night. I used to do a lot of international travel when I needed to go to sleep on the local time wherever I found myself. Am I addicted? I don't care if I am because I have a good night sleep most every night, and my doctor doesn't worry about it either as he is the one prescribing me the pills. I am aware that the strength of the medicine has decreased, but it still helps. I'm in my late 70s, so I don't really care about what other people happen to think about my medications, or most anything else for that matter.
Sleep to me is essential so I do what I have to do. Perhaps you could do the same. Or not.
Agreed. My sister takes it. Not every night, but just when she is keyed up. She's taken it for years. Not addicted, she could go without if she had to. But why? I have taken it maybe 5 times in my life. It works.
I have a cousin that has taken it every night for years. His wife is a nurse, and she was concerned if he should be taking it so much, so he asked his doc. His doc said he was healthy, and if he was sleeping well, then there was absolutely no reason to not take it.
I agree with seethelight, Ghaati & ChessieMom. People need to sleep. Being chronically sleep-deprived effects your physical AND mental health. Things might improve after you retire, my sleeping improved slightly after I retired, but I still barely slept & felt like a zombie. Who wants to live like that? I felt so bad that it was actually dangerous to exercise, I was in danger of stumbling & falling because I was so exhausted.
I also don't understand the constant off-label prescribing of those crappy tricyclic anti-depressants for insomnia. I tried trazadone at the insistence of my incompetent, former PCP. All it did make me dizzy & I nearly fell going to the toilet. Yeah, a broken bone for a old insomniac, awesome idea.
I also went the HRT route, which didn't help my sleep at all & eventually required a D&C. I'm also taking hypothyroid medication, didn't do a thing for my insomnia.
catsmom, maybe try zolpidem (Ambien). Everyone needs sleep. At this point in my life, I don't give a crap about being "dependent" on a pill, I just want to sleep so that I can have some QOL.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
