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Eh, it's large in the context of any place in the US not NYC. Center City is well known, but from there on out, you have a massive chunk of South Philly, north to some newly gentrified and "grittier" neighborhoods, and west to an ever expanding University City.
I wouldn't say that. Philadelphia is larger than San Francisco or DC, but the non-blighted, gentrified/walkable zone of the city might in fact be smaller.
I wouldn't say that. Philadelphia is larger than San Francisco or DC, but the non-blighted, gentrified/walkable zone of the city might in fact be smaller.
I would definitely say it though. SF or DC are in roughly the same league as would be Boston especially if you count across the Charles as contiguous. Chicago's larger, but it's hard to say it's in a different league. These are all large in the context of the US if you don't count NYC distorting the high end.
I would definitely say it though. SF or DC are in roughly the same league as would be Boston if you count across the Charles as contiguous. Chicago's larger and arguably in a different league.
You said "large in the context of any place in the US not NYC." So you're saying the same is true of DC, Philadelphia, SF and Boston? If so, I would agree with that.
But my point was that the comparable area of Philadelphia is not large compared to Brooklyn's and possibly even smaller compared to SF's or DC's.
And my perspective is apparently skewed because "not all of Brooklyn looks like Williamsburg," yet the prime examples of Philly urbanity that people literally CLING to in nearly every thread are the same gentrified areas that are not representative of the rest of the 128 sq. miles of the city. I'm not even going to play the Google maps game tonight.
You said "large in the context of any place in the US not NYC." So you're saying the same is true of DC, Philadelphia, SF and Boston? If so, I would agree with that.
But my point was that the comparable area of Philadelphia is not large compared to Brooklyn's and possibly even smaller compared to SF's or DC's.
And my perspective is apparently skewed because "not all of Brooklyn looks like Williamsburg," yet the prime examples of Philly urbanity that people literally CLING to in nearly every thread are the same gentrified areas that are not representative of the rest of the 128 sq. miles of the city. I'm not even going to play the Google maps game tonight.
Yes, that's what I'm saying.
I am kind of curious though about what your borders of contiguous nice enough walkable Philadelphia are compared to Duderino's and MarketStEl's.
I do think things are off on an odd tangent though and not just because of the topic not mentioning Brooklyn at all. I think for walkable areas, much of it isn't going to be dozens of square miles, but much less than that for your day to day experience especially if it's densely packed with a wide variety of things. I think once you are in dozens of square mile territory, then it's talking about something different and a bit more abstract.
I am kind of curious though about what your borders of contiguous nice enough walkable Philadelphia are compared to Duderino's and MarketStEl's.
Nobody wants to come out and say it, but they are talking about trendy neighborhoods--or neighborhoods that are at least trending that direction even if they have a working-class element--that draw lots of foot traffic and have bars/restaurants more appealing to upper middle class people. I don't hear people going on about the wonders of Nicetown.
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Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
I do think things are off on an odd tangent though and not just because of the topic not mentioning Brooklyn at all. I think for walkable areas, much of it isn't going to be dozens of square miles, but much less than that for your day to day experience especially if it's densely packed with a wide variety of things. I think once you are in dozens of square mile territory, then it's talking about something different and a bit more abstract.
I think it's a matter of both scale (size) and intensity. If you're talking about how Philly stacks up against NYC--or the parts that transplants of NYC transplants are migrating from--Philadelphia can give you a somewhat similar experience for about 1 square mile. It arguably mimics NYC better than any other city, but we're talking a very small area here. Anyone walking out of Center City will instantly notice that the buildings are shorter and there's far less pedestrian traffic. It's almost 98% SFH rowhousing with fewer commercial corridors.
Just from an urbanity standpoint, the experience is closer to Baltimore than it is to Brooklyn.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 06-20-2022 at 10:53 PM..
Getting back to this comparison though, I find it funny that posters often complain about cities that are too gentrified and lack "grit," but apparently the Bronx has a little too much of that. I guess you need to sprinkle in some hipsters moving from Bushwick to give it cache.
The ironic thing is that the Bronx is probably the best place in NYC for an actual "starving artist" to live, not simply some kid with a good job or significant parental support cosplaying as an artist.
Another cool thing about the Bronx is the cool stuff you can buy on the street. Fresh mangos, coconut, sugar cane, machetes, you name it.
Getting back to this comparison though, I find it funny that posters often complain about cities that are too gentrified and lack "grit," but apparently the Bronx has a little too much of that. I guess you need to sprinkle in some hipsters moving from Bushwick to give it cache.
The ironic thing is that the Bronx is probably the best place in NYC for an actual "starving artist" to live, not simply some kid with a good job or significant parental support cosplaying as an artist.
Another cool thing about the Bronx is the cool stuff you can buy on the street. Fresh mangos, coconut, sugar cane, machetes, you name it.
The thing is, it's not even cheap to live in The Bronx anymore. I'd rather pay slightly higher rent to live in a better neighborhood (though, I do like parts of The Bronx).
The thing is, it's not even cheap to live in The Bronx anymore. I'd rather pay slightly higher rent to live in a better neighborhood (though, I do like parts of The Bronx).
The average rent in the Bronx is about half what it is in Brooklyn. The point is that if you're a true starving artist, you're more likely to be in Riverdale than in Williamsburg.
Historically, actual artists in NYC have lived in some incredibly hard-hit neighborhoods. It's not like they were moving into lofts with Thai restaurants and farmers markets around every corner. The way some people view the Bronx now is the way some people viewed the LES/Bowery as recently as the 90s/00s.
Eh, it's large in the context of any place in the US not NYC. Center City is well known, but from there on out, you have a massive chunk of South Philly, north to some newly gentrified and "grittier" neighborhoods, and west to an ever expanding University City.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I'm not underselling anything. Did you forget I was actually born and raised there? I know what I'm talking about. Objectively, these two places aren't even close from an urbanity standpoint, and the only reason Philly would even have a chance here is because it has a true downtown while Downtown Brooklyn is a secondary or even tertiary employment center within the New York metropolitan area.
"Greater Center City" is defined as a 7.7 square mile area encompassing everything from Northern Liberties to swaths of South Philadelphia. In that area, there's a population of around 172K, meaning it has a population density of 22K ppsm. Bed-Stuy has about 158K in 2.8 sq. mi. Neighboring Clinton Hill has about 30K in 0.62 sq. mi. And bordering Ft. Greene has about 28K in 0.55 sq. mil. So you have about 44K more people in half the area. That's not including Prospect Heights. Or Downtown. Or Brooklyn Heights. Or Borerum Hill. Or Cobble Hill. Or Crown Heights. Or DUMBO. Or Park Slope.
If the argument is that all those extra people don't make much of a difference, or really can't be felt on a real level, then I don't know what else to say.
The thing is, that last sentence is going to be true when comparing most of New York City to any other U.S. city. Even Chicago or San Francisco.
And when you say that a Brooklynite will be "sorely disappointed" by the QOL, level of amenities, and so on in Philadelphia, you are indeed selling the latter city short. The extra people will make a difference in how one experiences the place, but they won't make the difference between joy and despair.
Don't forget that there are urbanophiles in this country for whom New York is too big. For them, a place like Philadelphia might be more their speed. Some might even prefer a far more relaxed place like St. Louis, or a more outdoorsy one like Denver. There's a widespread winterphobia abroad in the land, which is why (a) most of the fastest-growing cities are in the Sunbelt (b) you really have to sell people hard on living in the Twin Cities, another large metro famed for its high QOL.
But back to Brooklyn vs. Philadelphia: There are also several walkable and rather vibrant neighborhoods within the city limits that are not part of Greater Center City or GCC-adjacent like Fishtown. Manayunk, the adult playground for Main Liners, is one; so are two I've already mentioned, East Passyunk (Avenue) and the Zona del Oro, where tourists generally don't go.
And speaking of tourists, you now see them nosing around the Broad Street/Erie Avenue/Germantown Avenue intersection in Tioga-Nicetown thanks to the cameo Max's Steaks there got in "Creed," Sylvester Stallone's reboot of the "Rocky" franchise. Plans still call for the most famous and visible symbol of urban blight there — the 16-story Beury Building, the tallest building in the city outside Center City and better known for the tags "Boner 4Ever" on its long sides — into a hotel (yes, a hotel) with new housing and offices attached. (I need to poke the interior designer working on the project to see if there's any news; COVID stalled it in its tracks.)
One of those neighborhoods is actually not that walkable once you get off the main drag, but quite walkable if you live close to it: Chestnut Hill, the suburb-in-the-city at its very top (it's both the city's northwesternmost neighborhood and sits at its highest point). TBH, about the closest New York analogue to it I can think of is Forest Hills in Queens, but it looks more like someplace in Westchester County than that. The people who shop, dine, and own businesses along Germantown Avenue there are actually a little more racially and ethnically diverse than the people who live there; this indicates that it's a draw for many up that way who live outside it.
Frankly, the thing I feel most intensely about Philly missing compared to New York is street trees. Outside Center City, the neighborhoods immediately west of Penn's campus and north of Drexel's, and Northwest Philly in general, the streets here are pretty barren, and the presence of overhead utility transmission lines on most of them make it unlikely that they will ever be truly verdant (though those streets in Spruce Hill have overhead wires too and are much boskier, so maybe that's a false obstacle). But even on those, we could do better than we are doing now, and there are people here working on that.
As a whole, New York is the outlier among large US cities, but the true outlier is Manhattan. The other four boroughs differ from other large US cities more in degree than in kind (though local cultures will differ dramatically).
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