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I have in my videos. I am too busy to do a lot of posting on here. It takes a long time to create these responses. Usually, they seem like a big waste of time.
One needs to understand that the symbolism reflects the Most Holy Place of the Tabernacle/Temple, which is a scale model of the Zygote we were all conceived from. The Temple is the Body. Human life begins at conception.
The Cherubim in Eden represent the Ark of the Covenant. The Flaming Sword represents the Spirit/Soul combo I wrote about in your Soul thread.
After passing through the Lake of Fire, the Soul and Spirit are placed in the Nucleolus of the Zygote to be reconceived.
I go over this in my Reincarnation video...
I often see folks on this forum tell me that I need to 'listen to the Jewish Scholars'. Where do you think most of this info comes from? I am not as ignorant as the members here think I am.
It is the Jewish Scholars that taught me that Eden was like Jerusalem and that the Garden was like the Temple. It is their teachings, not mine.
It is because 'spiritual death' is man made false dogma...
The phrase spiritual death is not found in Protestant scriptures, and definitions of the concept thus vary among Protestant Christians. Spiritual death is distinct from physical death and the second death.
You are adding another death to the Bible. What number is that? The 'Third Death'?
Spiritual death is a lie to hide what Genesis 2:17 is actually teaching. Do you not see what the Church did there?
The above verses are absolutely, one hundred percent, LITERAL. Dead means dead, as in physical death. The verses are speaking of our past lives. You are so conditioned that you do not even see what has been there all along.
Did you read the entire context of the verses you quoted?
Ephesians 2:12
"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world."
We were dead when? We were dead way back in time before God was in the world. How long ago was that? I guarantee it was before you were born.
Moreover, have you ever educated yourself on what the word 'quickened' means? Look...
1 Corinthians 15:36
"Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die."
Do you see it? Only that which is *physically dead* can be quickened. Moreover, being quickened involves coming back in a new body!
It is about being resurrected!
1 Corinthians 15:35
"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"
Therefore, one cannot claim that becoming a Christian is the same as being 'quickened from death' unless it involves being born again physically *in a new body!*.
BINGO!!! *ALL* Life has the Spirit of God in it. The receiving of Holy Ghost is a renewal, not a first-time thing.
Was Jesus born without the Holy Spirit? According to you, the answer is yes. So much for having the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
What you are describing is called being 'twice dead', which is a Biblical term...
Jude 1:12
"These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots"
In other words, they are already condemned to the Second Death. Yet, according to you, spiritual death and twice dead are two different things. See the problem?
Again, if spiritual death meant that a person was already doomed to the Lake of Fire, then it would make perfect sense.
Yet, you and everyone else teach that they are two different things.
That is what being twice dead is. It means they *will* experience the Second Death. In other words, God does not change his mind. Judgment is set.
Thus, if we were 'dead in trespasses', then we were thrown into the Lake of Fire and ended up back here again. To suggest otherwise is contradicting Scripture.
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Thank you City Data for your IGNORE feature. I’ll be putting it to good use.
Although I agree with the above research that Genesis 2:17 is literal, I do not believe God lied.
So, why do so many Christians lie and claim that Genesis 2:17 is not literal? Is there an agenda here? Are they just ignorant?
If Adam and Eve physically died the very day they ate of the tree, how is it that the Bible account continues to describe them living and doing various things after they ate, being evicted from the Garden, etc.?
If Adam and Eve physically died the very day they ate of the tree, how is it that the Bible account continues to describe them living and doing various things, being evicted from the Garden, etc.?
You are adding another death to the Bible. What number is that? The 'Third Death'?
Spiritual death is a lie to hide what Genesis 2:17 is actually teaching. Do you not see what the Church did there?
There are in fact several different categories of death described in the Bible.
1.) Physical death: Separation of the soul from the body - 2 Cor. 5:8, Luke 16:22
2.) Spiritual death: separation from God - Ephesians 2:1-6. When Paul told the Corinthians that they had once been dead in their trespasses and sins, but had been made alive together with Christ, he was not saying that they had once been physically dead, or that they had once undergone the second death which according to the book of Revelation, chapter 20, will take place at the great white throne judgement at the end of 'the thousand years.' He was saying that they had once been separated from God - spiritual death.
3.) Second death: Revelation 20:12-15. Permanent separation from God.
4) Positional death: Rom. 6:5-14. In the baptism of the Holy Spirit in which the believer is baptized into Christ, the believer is both identified with Christ in his death, and then in identified with Christ in his resurrection. The believer is positionally in Christ.
5.) Temporal or Carnal death. The believer out of fellowship because of sin committed as a believer: Rom. 8:6, Eph. 5:14-18, 1 Tim. 5:6
6.) Sexual death, the definition of which should be obvious: Gen. 18:11, Rom. 4:19, Heb. 11:12
The Bible is much more expansive on the subject of death than you think.
One of the biggest lies that is told by the Church is that Genesis 2:17 is 'not literal'...
Well, merely because it is written that they were told not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil for in the day they eat of it they would surely die. So do you think that man was created as an eternal life form? If they were created by an eternal being then they would be be eternal in nature and could not die.
To die is death. Death is the cessation of life. Man did not exist before being created, so do you believe that man exists when dead?
However, an eternal being cannot create an eternal being. An eternal life form has no beginning of life, having always existed; the eternal being does not change in form or nature, so it can be perceived an eternal being will always exist. In such, any living thing that is created or has a beginning of existence is not eternal, and if not eternal then it will have an end of its existence.
For in the day they ate from the tree of knowledge, they knew that they would die.
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Eccl 9:5
The question is who said, "And whosoever is alive and believes in me shall never die."
One of the biggest lies that is told by the Church is that Genesis 2:17 is 'not literal'... Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
They will either change the word 'day', or they will change the phrase 'surely die' to mean something they do not (e.g., day = thousand years, spiritual death, began to die, etc.).
According to Scholars who understand how to properly translate and interpret the text, both 'day' and 'surely die' are to be understood as being literal.
1) OFFERING DECEPTION IN ORDER TO EXPOSE A NON-DECEPTION
It has always seemed (to me), very strange regarding religious opinions, that individuals seem to feel completely comfortable making firm pronouncements on subjects they have little understanding of, or that individuals themselves offer deceptions as part of making accusations that others are deceiving.
For example, the O.P. claims “According to Scholars who understand how to properly translate and interpret the text, both 'day' and 'surely die' are to be understood as being literal.
However, the Author of the O.P. obviously doesn’t himself read Hebrew or he would know this is incorrect and would not reject the posts of multiple other posters who point out that the Hebrew word “Yom” used in genesis (י֣וֹם ) translated as “day” DOES have meanings beyond the literal 24 hour period and it often used to indicate an indefinite period of time.
For examples Isaiah 34:8 says : For the day of vengeance is to Yahweh, the year of repayments for Zion's cause.
Such usage does not meant that this vengeance will happen in a 24 hour period but rather an unspecified time period in the future.
Other examples :
Isaiah 63:4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart….
2 Samuel 22:19 They confronted me in the day of my calamity,..
Job 15:23 …..He knows that [u]the day of darkness is at his hand.
Job 20:28 … in the day of His wrath.
Job 21:30 … the day of calamity.
Job 38:23 which I have reserved for the time of distress for the day of battle and war?
Psalm 18:18 … in my day of calamity, but Yahweh was my support.
Psalm 20:1 … May Yahweh answer you in the day of distress…
Psalm 20:9 … The King will answer us in the day of our calling.
Psalm 27:5 For in the day of evil…
Psalm 41:1 … Yahweh will deliver him in the day of evil.
Psalm 50:15 … call on Me in the day of distress;
Psalm 59:16 … You have been my strong tower, and my hiding place in the day of my trouble.
Psalm 77:2 In the day of my distress I sought the Lord;
So while it is true that yom with the article (singular) was typically used by the israelites to indicate a time period from midnight to midnight and longer periods were indicated by yom'im (days) in the plural, it is incorrect to claim " Scholars who understand how to properly translate and interpret the text" insist that "both 'day' and 'surely die' are to be understood as being literal". That is the underlying error.
There are MANY other scriptures that use yom/day to indicate an indefinite period of time, an eon of vengeance, etc.
The base assumption underlying the O.P. is incorrect and it’s conclusion irrelevant.
2) WHAT DOES IT TELL US ABOUT OUR OWN TENDENCIES TO CALL OTHERS LIARS AND CLAIM THEY ARE IGNORANT IF WE OURSELVES DECIEVE AND ARE IGNORANT?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Base12
So, why do so many Christians lie and claim that Genesis 2:17 is not literal? Is there an agenda here? Are they just ignorant?
There is no need for the endless quarrels and bickering if we simply admit to ourselves that we ourselves are ignorant of facts and there is much that none of us understand. The tendency for undeserved smugness towards other posters tends to contaminate much of our conversations and debates.
A bit of humility and generosity in our conversations with one another might improve our discussions and allow us to learn more and argue less.
Last edited by Clear lens; Today at 01:28 PM..
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