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Think! If His Spirit already transforms into the myriad aspects of our Reality, how can there even be a question about whether or not He can????? He already DOES transform His Spirit in an infinite number of ways. Stop trying to project whatever rigid DOCTRINE you seek to defend and think about what is being said. Use your head instead of your "precepts and doctrines of men."
This is why I had you on ignore for so long. You continue to bring a scrabble game to the conversation and judge the thinking of others.
Here is a quote from a portion of L.Ray Smiths work,, i believe tells a lot, there is a lot more he has to say, this is just a short example:
Whenever someone tries to teach you a doctrine that is UNscriptural, he will always be forced to use words that are unscriptural.
That's a faulty argument. In or out of the Bible terminology is developed to describe concepts. That's true in science, medicine, engineering, and theology.
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First of all, nowhere in the Scriptures is God referred to or called a "trinity."
The word 'Trinity' is not found in the Bible but the concept certainly is. The word trinity simply refers to a group of three persons or things. In the Bible the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all referred to as God.
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Second, the word "three" is never used in reference to Who or What God is.
And yet, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit add up to ''three.'' But a unity of three 'persons' as one God.
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Third, God is never called or referred to as "a person."
The word 'person' as applied to God is not to be understood in the same sense as when referring to a human. God's mode of existence is not the same as created beings are. But God has the attributes that define personhood. God has self-awareness, autonomy, He thinks, He makes choices, etc. In other words, God is not some impersonal force. He is the Supreme Being that brought everything into existence.
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Four, the holy spirit is never called "God."
Yes he is. In Acts 5:3-4 lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. You cannot lie to a mere force or to an attribute. Since you can lie to the Holy Spirit he therefore has to be an intelligent being to whom the lie matters. He is also shown in John 16:13-15 to have attributes of personhood in that he has initiative (though he does not speak from his own initiative) he hears, and he speaks. The Holy Spirit is shown to be distinct from the Father in Romans 8:27 to have a mind which the Father knows thus showing a distinction between the Father and the Holy Spirit which again is shown to have a mind. The Holy Spirit is an intelligent Being which in Romans 8:26 intercedes for us with the Father.
And so the Holy Spirit is said to be God and He is shown to distinct from the Father, as well as from Jesus as shown in John 16:13-15.
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Five, since Christ is the Son, He cannot also be the Father
That argument shows ignorance of the doctrine of the Trinity which never says that the Son is the Father. As John 1:1 states, the Word was with God, the Word was God. You cannot be the same person you are with. While the Word (the pre-incarnate Jesus) is himself God, he is not the Father.
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or be coequal with His Father. Christ plainly said:
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"My Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).
There is within the godhead an authority structure. The Father is the author of and the authority within the Divine plan of creation and salvation. However, in terms of ontology the Son and the Holy Spirit are of the same nature, with the same attributes as the Father.
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The holy spirit is never called God,
As shown above, that claim is false.
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God is never referred to as a trinity or a person or consisting of three,
Also as shown above, the concept which the word 'Trinity' stands for is certainly shown in the Bible.
The Father as God: Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Jesus as God: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The Holy Spirit as God: Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? 4] While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”
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and Christ is the Son of the Father, YET this mysterious doctrine is believed by millions. Why?
For the reasons laid out above.
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Let's see if my thousand page Hastings Dictionary of the Bible can help us.
Page 1015: TRINITY--The Christian doctrine of God as existing in three Persons and one Substance IS NOT DEMONSTRABLE BY LOGIC or SCRIPTURAL PROOF..." (Emphasis mine).
What an admission. But (I surely don't want to leave out the "but"), but, we are told that it is, "...a NECESSARY HYPOTHESIS, ABOVE REASON but not contrary to it" (Emphasis mine again). Yah, right. That's like saying square circles are "above reason but not contrary to it."
The statement above is simply not true as has been shown above. Scriptural evidence and statements have been shown above. Nor is logic an issue. God's mode of existence is not the same as that of created beings. That the three 'persons' of the godhead are united by their nature, essence, or attributes (take your pick) as one Being need not be considered mysterious.
The three distinct 'persons' of the Trinity so mutually indwell and interpenetrate each other as to cease to be separate beings, but exist as One Being. There's an old doctrine called Perichoresis which describes this concept.
''Perichoresis is a Greek term used to describe the triune relationship between each person of the Godhead. It can be defined as co-indwelling, co-inhering, and mutual interpenetration. Alister McGrath writes that it "allows the individuality of the persons to be maintained, while insisting that each person shares in the life of the other two. An image often used to express this idea is that of a 'community of being,' in which each person, while maintaining its distinctive identity, penetrates the others and is penetrated by them." ''
That's a faulty argument. In or out of the Bible terminology is developed to describe concepts. That's true in science, medicine, engineering, and theology.
The word 'Trinity' is not found in the Bible but the concept certainly is. The word trinity simply refers to a group of three persons or things. In the Bible the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all referred to as God.
And yet, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit add up to ''three.'' But a unity of three 'persons' as one God.
The word 'person' as applied to God is not to be understood in the same sense as when referring to a human. God's mode of existence is not the same as created beings are. But God has the attributes that define personhood. God has self-awareness, autonomy, He thinks, He makes choices, etc. In other words, God is not some impersonal force. He is the Supreme Being that brought everything into existence.
Yes he is. In Acts 5:3-4 lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. You cannot lie to a mere force or to an attribute. Since you can lie to the Holy Spirit he therefore has to be an intelligent being to whom the lie matters. He is also shown in John 16:13-15 to have attributes of personhood in that he has initiative (though he does not speak from his own initiative) he hears, and he speaks. The Holy Spirit is shown to be distinct from the Father in Romans 8:27 to have a mind which the Father knows thus showing a distinction between the Father and the Holy Spirit which again is shown to have a mind. The Holy Spirit is an intelligent Being which in Romans 8:26 intercedes for us with the Father.
And so the Holy Spirit is said to be God and He is shown to distinct from the Father, as well as from Jesus as shown in John 16:13-15.
That argument shows ignorance of the doctrine of the Trinity which never says that the Son is the Father. As John 1:1 states, the Word was with God, the Word was God. You cannot be the same person you are with. While the Word (the pre-incarnate Jesus) is himself God, he is not the Father.
There is within the godhead an authority structure. The Father is the author of and the authority within the Divine plan of creation and salvation. However, in terms of ontology the Son and the Holy Spirit are of the same nature, with the same attributes as the Father.
As shown above, that claim is false.
Also as shown above, the concept which the word 'Trinity' stands for is certainly shown in the Bible.
The Father as God: Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Jesus as God: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The Holy Spirit as God: Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? 4] While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”
For the reasons laid out above.
The statement above is simply not true as has been shown above. Scriptural evidence and statements have been shown above. Nor is logic an issue. God's mode of existence is not the same as that of created beings. That the three 'persons' of the godhead are united by their nature, essence, or attributes (take your pick) as one Being need not be considered mysterious.
The three distinct 'persons' of the Trinity so mutually indwell and interpenetrate each other as to cease to be separate beings, but exist as One Being. There's an old doctrine called Perichoresis which describes this concept.
''Perichoresis is a Greek term used to describe the triune relationship between each person of the Godhead. It can be defined as co-indwelling, co-inhering, and mutual interpenetration. Alister McGrath writes that it "allows the individuality of the persons to be maintained, while insisting that each person shares in the life of the other two. An image often used to express this idea is that of a 'community of being,' in which each person, while maintaining its distinctive identity, penetrates the others and is penetrated by them." ''
What I see also is the how/when/why .... which the Scriptures do address
The Promise Realized Through Faith
Rom 4:13**For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14**For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15**Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16**Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17**(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18**Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
The problem is the religious get the timing and symbols wrong (as the Scriptures say would happen)
Dan 4:34**And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
Dan 4:35**And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Dan 4:36**At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
Dan 4:37**Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
What I see also is the how/when/why .... which the Scriptures do address
Yes, I agree with that. God's plan operates on a timetable which He has established, and that plan incorporates certain changes at the right time to carry out God's overall plan with an eye toward the ultimate purpose of God.
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The Promise Realized Through Faith
Rom 4:13**For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14**For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15**Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16**Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17**(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18**Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
The problem is the religious get the timing and symbols wrong (as the Scriptures say would happen)
Dan 4:34**And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
Dan 4:35**And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Dan 4:36**At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
Dan 4:37**Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
Right. The Mosaic law had not been given to Abraham who responded with faith to the promise of God. It was given to Israel after the Exodus from Egypt, and its purpose was to act as a temporary guardian to Israel until Christ came and went to the cross. Once that occurred the Mosaic Law's purpose had been fulfilled and we are therefore not under the law but have been released from it.
As a dispensationalist I appreciate the timing aspect of God's overall plan. Everything in its own season.
Yes, I agree with that. God's plan operates on a timetable which He has established, and that plan incorporates certain changes at the right time to carry out God's overall plan with an eye toward the ultimate purpose of God.
Right. The Mosaic law had not been given to Abraham who responded with faith to the promise of God. It was given to Israel after the Exodus from Egypt, and its purpose was to act as a temporary guardian to Israel until Christ came and went to the cross. Once that occurred the Mosaic Law's purpose had been fulfilled and we are therefore not under the law but have been released from it.
As a dispensationalist I appreciate the timing aspect of God's overall plan. Everything in its own season.
Yes, and the same Spirit inspired the writing of the NT - using scribes, prophets, priests ..... sometimes under different names which need translation and interpretation and alignment
The same techniques are used (symbolism, metaphor, allegory, etc) to fulfill what was collected and kept by the Hebrews/Jews.,,,, And was also collected and kept by the RCC/denominations within their respective rituals and traditions - also the muslims/Islam have their own collection, and role/administration too
1500’s was a critical “time” and I believe that the 1000 years between ca 500 Ad and ca 1500 ad are very significant in the timing
The principalities, powers, rulers here are very human
The Whole Armor of God
Eph 6:10**Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11**Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12**For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13**Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14**Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15**And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16**Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17**And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18**Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Eph 6:19**And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Eph 6:20**For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
Yes, and the same Spirit inspired the writing of the NT - using scribes, prophets, priests ..... sometimes under different names which need translation and interpretation and alignment
Yes, I believe also that the Holy Spirit inspired the NT writers whom I believe to have been the apostles and those closely associated with the apostles.
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The same techniques are used (symbolism, metaphor, allegory, etc) to fulfill what was collected and kept by the Hebrews/Jews.,,,, And was also collected and kept by the RCC/denominations within their respective rituals and traditions - also the muslims/Islam have their own collection, and role/administration too
1500’s was a critical “time” and I believe that the 1000 years between ca 500 Ad and ca 1500 ad are very significant in the timing
You mean with regard to the power of the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation?
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The principalities, powers, rulers here are very human
The Whole Armor of God
Eph 6:10**Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11**Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12**For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13**Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14**Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15**And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16**Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17**And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18**Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Eph 6:19**And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Eph 6:20**For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
I don't believe that Paul was referring to humans since as he said, ''we don't wrestle against flesh and blood,'' and mentions the schemes of the devil, but that he is referring to actual entities of the spiritual realm such as the fallen angels and demons, as well as Satan himself. After all, Jesus called Satan ''the ruler of this world''. But certainly, human rulers can be under Satanic influences.
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