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...I am suddenly faced with a possible job transfer from Austin (not my native town) to Tulsa and I was freaking out because I'd heard every Oklahoma joke and stereotype after a few years in Austin.
I was actually born in Austin, and have lived all over the USA, but I've spent more time in Oklahoma than any other place (several different parts of the state, but mostly Tulsa.)
Don't believe the stereotypes.
Ok, well, they are stereotypes for a reason.
True, there is no shortage of the beer-swillin', truck-drivin', "Proud to Be a Redneck" set here. But you know what? That doesn't mean they aren't good, kind people.
Heck, I'd rather hang out with a so-called country bumpkin any day than some uptight stockbroker or a big country club golf fanatic or something.
Also, the state is predominantly (neo)-conservative Christian (not that the Republican-voters and Christians here are bad people either.)
In fact, most people here are quite nice, genuine and down to earth. Friendly and helpful.
It is an easy place to live. Low cost of living, decent housing, actually some great natural beauty in spots.
But Oklahoma is more diverse than people think, and is becoming more so all the time.
Oklahoma, as a state, regularly votes more than 30% blue, and has for several presidential election cycles.
When I was growing up, I was a first generation punk rock kid. The people I hung out with might have been considered freaks, but there were a good number of us, a great music scene...my friends were all very bright, interesting, open minded, fun people.
And that was 30 years ago.
Today, with FaceBook, YouTube and the internet and even the increase in television options, with all the attendant instantaneous global communication and interaction, people (even Okies!) aren't often freaked out or offended by people of different cultures, sexual orientations, or lifestyles once considered "extreme" or "weird" like tattooed, pierced-up, green mohawk folks.
There are certainly pockets of the state that could be viewed as a little more backwards or adhering to perhaps a less open mindset, but things have definitely opened up here. I just moved back after 8 years away living in three different states and it changed considerably in that time, for the better.
The only real problem I have with it is the meth head gangbanging crap. The meth can be seen even in rural small towns, but that ain't just an Oklahoma thing. The gangbanging, violent stuff tends to happen more in the two metros and in my opinion it is far worse in OKC than in Tulsa. This isn't due to actual crime statistics as much as some other aspects of Tulsa and OKC which I'll get to in a second.
Crime rates in both towns are close to double the national average, though rates of murder, rape, assault and robbery are higher in OKC while overall crime (including nonviolent crime) is slightly higher in Tulsa.
In fact, overall per capita crime rates in both Tulsa and OKC are nearly twice those of Los Angeles and New York (both of which are below the national average.)
But the reason I give Tulsa an edge here is because in that city it is pretty clearly delineated what parts of town have the highest concentration of violent crime. You spent any time in Tulsa and you'll quickly learn what specific areas you'll not want to be hanging out in after dark.
OKC on the other hand, is a jumble of fairly nice neighborhoods and business districts surrounded by ghetto-tastic, high crime areas, boarded up run down crud and industrial wasteland. You'll drive through a little part of OKC and think "Hey! This is pretty nice," And then two blocks later you are in Creepyville district or Crackton Heights and get the willies. I'll never get used to that.
(I've been in OKC since we moved back to the state last Thanksgiving but we don't like it here and hope to move to another city in the state soon.)
Tulsa is also far prettier and has more of a cultural base.
You could do far worse than relocating to Tulsa, and there are lots of other good-sized towns scattered around here as well. Norman (near OKC) is quite nice and Bartlesville and especially Tahlequah (both about an hour from Tulsa) are nice too. Ardmore (So Centeral Oklahoma) is an okay town and is surrounded by cool, pretty places like Turner Falls and Lake Murray. Lawton isn't too bad and it's right by the Wichita Refuge, home of the ancient Wichita Mountains. I love heading up to Mt. Scott for a day. Beautiful up there.
I spent a lot of years railing about Oklahoma, but now I'm glad to be home. There's plenty variety of people, events, outdoorsy stuff and other things to do.
I'm even coming to terms with being stuck in OKC for now. Got some old friends here (and some new ones), our neighborhood is nice and I continue to find little patches of the city that are pretty swell.
I was actually born in Austin, and have lived all over the USA, but I've spent more time in Oklahoma than any other place (several different parts of the state, but mostly Tulsa.)
Don't believe the stereotypes.
Ok, well, they are stereotypes for a reason.
True, there is no shortage of the beer-swillin', truck-drivin', "Proud to Be a Redneck" set here. But you know what? That doesn't mean they aren't good, kind people.
Heck, I'd rather hang out with a so-called country bumpkin any day than some uptight stockbroker or a big country club golf fanatic or something.
Also, the state is predominantly (neo)-conservative Christian (not that the Republican-voters and Christians here are bad people either.)
In fact, most people here are quite nice, genuine and down to earth. Friendly and helpful.
It is an easy place to live. Low cost of living, decent housing, actually some great natural beauty in spots.
But Oklahoma is more diverse than people think, and is becoming more so all the time.
Oklahoma, as a state, regularly votes more than 30% blue, and has for several presidential election cycles.
When I was growing up, I was a first generation punk rock kid. The people I hung out with might have been considered freaks, but there were a good number of us, a great music scene...my friends were all very bright, interesting, open minded, fun people.
And that was 30 years ago.
Today, with FaceBook, YouTube and the internet and even the increase in television options, with all the attendant instantaneous global communication and interaction, people (even Okies!) aren't often freaked out or offended by people of different cultures, sexual orientations, or lifestyles once considered "extreme" or "weird" like tattooed, pierced-up, green mohawk folks.
There are certainly pockets of the state that could be viewed as a little more backwards or adhering to perhaps a less open mindset, but things have definitely opened up here. I just moved back after 8 years away living in three different states and it changed considerably in that time, for the better.
The only real problem I have with it is the meth head gangbanging crap. The meth can be seen even in rural small towns, but that ain't just an Oklahoma thing. The gangbanging, violent stuff tends to happen more in the two metros and in my opinion it is far worse in OKC than in Tulsa. This isn't due to actual crime statistics as much as some other aspects of Tulsa and OKC which I'll get to in a second.
Crime rates in both towns are close to double the national average, though rates of murder, rape, assault and robbery are higher in OKC while overall crime (including nonviolent crime) is slightly higher in Tulsa.
In fact, overall per capita crime rates in both Tulsa and OKC are nearly twice those of Los Angeles and New York (both of which are below the national average.)
But the reason I give Tulsa an edge here is because in that city it is pretty clearly delineated what parts of town have the highest concentration of violent crime. You spent any time in Tulsa and you'll quickly learn what specific areas you'll not want to be hanging out in after dark.
OKC on the other hand, is a jumble of fairly nice neighborhoods and business districts surrounded by ghetto-tastic, high crime areas, boarded up run down crud and industrial wasteland. You'll drive through a little part of OKC and think "Hey! This is pretty nice," And then two blocks later you are in Creepyville district or Crackton Heights and get the willies. I'll never get used to that.
(I've been in OKC since we moved back to the state last Thanksgiving but we don't like it here and hope to move to another city in the state soon.)
Tulsa is also far prettier and has more of a cultural base.
You could do far worse than relocating to Tulsa, and there are lots of other good-sized towns scattered around here as well. Norman (near OKC) is quite nice and Bartlesville and especially Tahlequah (both about an hour from Tulsa) are nice too. Ardmore (So Centeral Oklahoma) is an okay town and is surrounded by cool, pretty places like Turner Falls and Lake Murray. Lawton isn't too bad and it's right by the Wichita Refuge, home of the ancient Wichita Mountains. I love heading up to Mt. Scott for a day. Beautiful up there.
I spent a lot of years railing about Oklahoma, but now I'm glad to be home. There's plenty variety of people, events, outdoorsy stuff and other things to do.
I'm even coming to terms with being stuck in OKC for now. Got some old friends here (and some new ones), our neighborhood is nice and I continue to find little patches of the city that are pretty swell.
>>>>>
True, there is no shortage of the beer-swillin', truck-drivin', "Proud to Be a Redneck" set here. But you know what? That doesn't mean they aren't good, kind people.
Heck, I'd rather hang out with a so-called country bumpkin any day than some uptight stockbroker or a big country club golf fanatic or something. <<<<<
I was actually born in Austin, and have lived all over the USA, but I've spent more time in Oklahoma than any other place (several different parts of the state, but mostly Tulsa.)
Don't believe the stereotypes.
Ok, well, they are stereotypes for a reason.
True, there is no shortage of the beer-swillin', truck-drivin', "Proud to Be a Redneck" set here. But you know what? That doesn't mean they aren't good, kind people.
Heck, I'd rather hang out with a so-called country bumpkin any day than some uptight stockbroker or a big country club golf fanatic or something.
Also, the state is predominantly (neo)-conservative Christian (not that the Republican-voters and Christians here are bad people either.)
In fact, most people here are quite nice, genuine and down to earth. Friendly and helpful.
It is an easy place to live. Low cost of living, decent housing, actually some great natural beauty in spots.
But Oklahoma is more diverse than people think, and is becoming more so all the time.
Oklahoma, as a state, regularly votes more than 30% blue, and has for several presidential election cycles.
When I was growing up, I was a first generation punk rock kid. The people I hung out with might have been considered freaks, but there were a good number of us, a great music scene...my friends were all very bright, interesting, open minded, fun people.
And that was 30 years ago.
Today, with FaceBook, YouTube and the internet and even the increase in television options, with all the attendant instantaneous global communication and interaction, people (even Okies!) aren't often freaked out or offended by people of different cultures, sexual orientations, or lifestyles once considered "extreme" or "weird" like tattooed, pierced-up, green mohawk folks.
There are certainly pockets of the state that could be viewed as a little more backwards or adhering to perhaps a less open mindset, but things have definitely opened up here. I just moved back after 8 years away living in three different states and it changed considerably in that time, for the better.
The only real problem I have with it is the meth head gangbanging crap. The meth can be seen even in rural small towns, but that ain't just an Oklahoma thing. The gangbanging, violent stuff tends to happen more in the two metros and in my opinion it is far worse in OKC than in Tulsa. This isn't due to actual crime statistics as much as some other aspects of Tulsa and OKC which I'll get to in a second.
Crime rates in both towns are close to double the national average, though rates of murder, rape, assault and robbery are higher in OKC while overall crime (including nonviolent crime) is slightly higher in Tulsa.
In fact, overall per capita crime rates in both Tulsa and OKC are nearly twice those of Los Angeles and New York (both of which are below the national average.)
But the reason I give Tulsa an edge here is because in that city it is pretty clearly delineated what parts of town have the highest concentration of violent crime. You spent any time in Tulsa and you'll quickly learn what specific areas you'll not want to be hanging out in after dark.
OKC on the other hand, is a jumble of fairly nice neighborhoods and business districts surrounded by ghetto-tastic, high crime areas, boarded up run down crud and industrial wasteland. You'll drive through a little part of OKC and think "Hey! This is pretty nice," And then two blocks later you are in Creepyville district or Crackton Heights and get the willies. I'll never get used to that.
(I've been in OKC since we moved back to the state last Thanksgiving but we don't like it here and hope to move to another city in the state soon.)
Tulsa is also far prettier and has more of a cultural base.
You could do far worse than relocating to Tulsa, and there are lots of other good-sized towns scattered around here as well. Norman (near OKC) is quite nice and Bartlesville and especially Tahlequah (both about an hour from Tulsa) are nice too. Ardmore (So Centeral Oklahoma) is an okay town and is surrounded by cool, pretty places like Turner Falls and Lake Murray. Lawton isn't too bad and it's right by the Wichita Refuge, home of the ancient Wichita Mountains. I love heading up to Mt. Scott for a day. Beautiful up there.
I spent a lot of years railing about Oklahoma, but now I'm glad to be home. There's plenty variety of people, events, outdoorsy stuff and other things to do.
I'm even coming to terms with being stuck in OKC for now. Got some old friends here (and some new ones), our neighborhood is nice and I continue to find little patches of the city that are pretty swell.
Excellent post, I've been back almost three years and have lived in B'ville, Owasso (Tulsa), and Norman/Moore myself. I couldn't put it any better. The negatives that you mention aren't at all Oklahoma exclusives, as I spent quite a few years in Missouri. Once you leave the larger cities, the Meth, creepy attitudes and violence are the same almost coast to coast, but particularly in Missouri. I still love the state as well, but small town middle-America has some serious challenges ahead to survive.
I drove through Norman for the first time in a decade last year, and was STUNNED at the growth. I know it's a good thing, but some of the character that it had was lost. I look forward to going back for a weekend and a better look around.
The "secret" to getting CA and other coastal real estate to sky high prices is things.
1) Drunk Bankers. A LOT of Drunk Bankers. These guys need to start with keg beer for breakfast before pounding down a fifth of burbon before lunch. Espresso is for pansies for these drunk yahoos. If they actually thought about what they were doing, they'd never loan 500k to someone making 30k as a shift manager for McD's on a 50 year note at 5% interest with a balloon payment at the end.
Fascinating...I knew there must be tricks to doing this. I guess as long as your property values continue to go only UP, and the only question is by how much, the system sort of works. You never pay into principal, or get money back, or ever actually own it (meh, property tax, if you think you own anything try not paying the taxes on it!) then the system works, right? But, if values go down, and you lose at musical chairs, you're screwed! I have also read of the influx of ex-Californians to Texas, especially Dallas. I can see why. If you have any savings left, it would be a great way to live the same lifestyle and actually have your own home.
Thanks for your opinions on this, they never explain these things when shopping for "bargain" 750,000 bungalows on TV!
I drove through Norman for the first time in a decade last year, and was STUNNED at the growth. I know it's a good thing, but some of the character that it had was lost. I look forward to going back for a weekend and a better look around.
Yeah, I didn't see Norman or set foot in Oklahoma from 2005 until late last year. I was surprised at how Norman had grown too, but it seems to be managed fairly well. I lived there for a while (it's where I met my wife and we were there when my older daughter was born) in the mid-90s and liked it. I had a lot of friends from Tulsa who moved there to attend OU.
Norman might be my favorite place in the world, or even my first choice of towns to live in in Oklahoma, but I could certainly live there again and be pretty happy. My wife works there and my stepson lives there. Every time I am there I am struck by how much nicer it is than OKC. Better in every way to me.
Then again, every time I get out of OKC, regardless of which direction or where I am going, I breathe a sigh of relief.
Again, a lot of this is not due to specific problems I have with OKC in particular; I just find the older I get the more I do not want to live around hundreds of thousands of people with the attendant traffic, having to hit highways to get from one part of town to another, etc., etc.
As much as I prefer Tulsa, I have to say I wouldn't really want to live there anymore either. I still like that region of the state better though, for the most part.
Prop 13 [not 8, that's the anti gay marriage one that was later struck down by the court] basically means your property taxes are frozen at whatever they were when you first acquired the property. I believe if you inherit it it stays at the rate it did when the person who left it to you first acquired it. The idea is to keep people from being taxed out of their homes if property values skyrocket. I think it's generally a good thing, although you definitely saw the drawbacks to it during the recession when there was less income tax coming in due to high unemployment. Seems like the state is already more or less recovered from it though, at least in the main economic centers. As long as the tech industry is centered there, California will probably be okay, and also you're always going to have really wealthy people who want to live there and are more than willing to pay for the privilege.
As far as wealthy people, when CA has liberal wonks like Bill Mahar notifying them on TV that they are going to leave because of the sky high income tax, you have a BIG problem. The schools stink and the Hollywood crowd can live anywhere they please and just commute in like the IT people do. The average worker in LA has to commute in from Bakersfield or El Centro to afford a home. It used to be Burbank or Oxnard. When you have three hour commutes and sky high taxes, how long will it be before everyone who can do math finally figures out their actual net personal gain by working is not positive but actually negative and leaves?
I think all of Apple will leave for Austin in a decade and Oracle and Intel are two huge tech giants that have CA properties only because they bought out competitors, not a statement of wanting to be in Silicon Valley. As more Internet entrepreneurs fan out and Skype each other, the valley becomes less important. A Valley PO box may be valuable but the workers won't be getting beaten up 49er games or getting stabbed at AT&T Park after a while.
That's one huge reason I've refused to look at positions in LA. Another is that the state will eventually kill all of its energy industry (which was VERY SUBSTANTIAL even 50 years ago) so why live in a place that taxes the heck out of me and wants to kill my job?
The reason Tulsa is the most affordable is that the real estate and average food price is below what decent paying jobs pay. It is one of the few metros with a population very near or over 1 MM people have affordable, non-subsidized housing near the urban core. It is also much prettier than people give it credit for.
Thanks for the clarification on Prop 13.
I think all of Apple will leave for Austin in a decade and Oracle and Intel are two huge tech giants that have CA properties only because they bought out competitors, not a statement of wanting to be in Silicon Valley.
Really?
Apple's new headquarters in Cupertino. They got final approval LAST WEEK from the city. Due to open in 2016. It's so large the Pentagon will fit in it's footprint.
I work for a company based "in the valley" and I can tell you most of what you posted is wrong. The Bay area isn't fading away as the capital of tech any time soon, tech is booming there. The Bay has most of the largest American tech companies already based there and the largest that are not (other than Amazon), Dell, IBM and Microsoft are the companies that are fading. Oracle and Intel don't just have "properties" there, they are both based in Santa Clara (so is my company) and have always been based in the Bay Area.
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