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The debate/issue about this is created by the news media
Creating a false comparison of "Expensive rail" vs "cheap highways"
Say whatever you want about rail, but the cost of maintenance should be WAY cheaper than highway maintenance.
That's why news media never publishes cost of highway maintenance.
Besides that ... building rail also reduces the need to add more lanes to existing highways.
No where in world does passenger rail exist without some sort of direct or indirect state subsidy coming in somewhere. That Amtrak and Texas Central RR believe they can do this on their own with entirely private investment remains to be seen.
I was off by the drive between DFW and HOU. (3.5 Hrs without traffic, 4 with traffic)
I was also off by the HSR trip between DFW. (1.5 Hrs on the train and another 1 to 2 combined Hrs to contend with local traffic and check in/out the local stations to arrive and depart from the station at each end for a total combined time ranging between 2.5 - 3.5 Hrs depending on traffic and where you're originating and destinating to/from in relationship to the station.)
You will not be saving any time in traffic as the current DFW / HOU plans will not bypass much of that traffic as you will still need to drive between the train stations in the areas where much of that traffic exists, the urban areas. The HOU station also does not drop off in downtown, you will still need to contend with much of Houston's traffic to get to your intended destination using either the bus or a rideshare / taxi. The last mile issues destroy any kind of time saved using a HSR system between DFW and Houston. For the luxury of taking a train, I would get it but that's not what a business invests that kind of money to achieve. There needs to be a significant benefit over driving, the current setup just isn't enough of one to justify the costs.
It would be much better if:
HOU dropped off in Downtown.
Both metro's had a transit system in place that was not based on a Park & Ride model as the entire premises of the system for an average commuter is to bypass traffic, which is something it not effectively doing in its current setup.
I don't think the last mile issue is as bad as you're saying here. It's certainly no worse than the airports. And IIRC, the downtown Dallas stop will be connected with DART and the streetcar, so there's options there if you want to use public transit.
As far as the Houston stop, it'll be connected with the Inner Katy BRT line which will be a straight shot to Downtown and the Uptown BRT which will is a similarly straight shot to Uptown. The stop is right on I-10 and also a straight shot to the Energy Corridor. My assumption would be that Metro would push to extend the Katy BRT outward if this were to happen, so you could have good access to three of Houston's 5 or 6 major business districts within 20 minutes if this is done correctly. Keeping in mind this isn't going to be the family on a weekend trip to Dallas that's making up the clientele for this, its primarily going to be business travelers. They're probably not going to Richmond or Friendswood, they're generally going to the business districts and that location gives you better access to them than either IAH or Hobby.
Trains don't take long to board or deboard either compared to aircraft so a business traveler going from say, downtown Dallas to uptown Houston could realistically see a 2.5 hour trip door to door. Flying, its not impossible to make 2.5 hours but everything would have to go right (e.g. Love Field to Hobby, no delays at either airport, flight is on time, traffic isn't bad). But realistically (and having done it several times by air), its closer to 3. Driving, you're talking 3.5 hours (at best). HSR is definitely a time-saver especially given the reliability of trains compared to airplanes or road traffic.
I don't think the last mile issue is as bad as you're saying here. It's certainly no worse than the airports. And IIRC, the downtown Dallas stop will be connected with DART and the streetcar, so there's options there if you want to use public transit.
As far as the Houston stop, it'll be connected with the Inner Katy BRT line which will be a straight shot to Downtown and the Uptown BRT which will is a similarly straight shot to Uptown. The stop is right on I-10 and also a straight shot to the Energy Corridor. My assumption would be that Metro would push to extend the Katy BRT outward if this were to happen, so you could have good access to three of Houston's 5 or 6 major business districts within 20 minutes if this is done correctly. Keeping in mind this isn't going to be the family on a weekend trip to Dallas that's making up the clientele for this, its primarily going to be business travelers. They're probably not going to Richmond or Friendswood, they're generally going to the business districts and that location gives you better access to them than either IAH or Hobby.
Trains don't take long to board or deboard either compared to aircraft so a business traveler going from say, downtown Dallas to uptown Houston could realistically see a 2.5 hour trip door to door. Flying, its not impossible to make 2.5 hours but everything would have to go right (e.g. Love Field to Hobby, no delays at either airport, flight is on time, traffic isn't bad). But realistically (and having done it several times by air), its closer to 3. Driving, you're talking 3.5 hours (at best). HSR is definitely a time-saver especially given the reliability of trains compared to airplanes or road traffic.
HSR and Airports are not comparable.
Airlines are intended for long distance travel and save a plethora of time doing so making last mile issues negligible. It's pretty silly to fly from DFW to HOU, I realize people do it, but there's no benefit of doing that whatsoever. There is no savings in time, no savings in costs, its overall better to drive.
HSR is intended for intermediate travel and competes more with automobiles than airlines. last mile connectivity either makes or break effective service when compared to driving, as HSR competes more with automobiles than airlines.
Last edited by Need4Camaro; 08-18-2023 at 04:08 AM..
Airlines are intended for long distance travel and save a plethora of time doing so making last mile issues negligible. It's pretty silly to fly from DFW to HOU, I realize people do it, but there's no benefit of doing that whatsoever. There is no savings in time, no savings in costs, its overall better to drive.
HSR is intended for intermediate travel and competes more with automobiles than airlines. last mile connectivity either makes or break effective service when compared to driving, as HSR competes more with automobiles than airlines.
No, the primary competition for HSR is air service. This is well established. Look at Europe - HSR has significantly displaced short haul air service.
Just like with air service, the vast majority of HSR passengers will have to get local personal transport upon arrival. That means renting a car, getting an Uber, etc. Local public mass transit will make little difference, at least in the form it takes in DFW and Houston today. Though I will say the Houston station would definitely have transit appeal once it has the BRT connections to Downtown and Uptown (the latter is nearly already there). Much better than having the station on the outer edges of Downtown.
IIRC you're not originally from TX. The DFW / Houston airline flights, just like SoCal / Bay Area flights, were essentially high-frequency shuttles in the 1970s-1990s and very very popular (it was the most important route for Southwest). Internet, security and other factors seem to have reduced demand since then.
Part of the factor of whether folks will switch from air service to HSR for their trip depends on whether the stations in the two metros are convenient to where they're going / coming from. For some, the airports may remain more convenient. For others, the HSR stations may be better. This is as true for business travelers as for leisure travelers, especially given that a lot of the major employment centers in both metros are located well away from the urban cores.
No, the primary competition for HSR is air service. This is well established. Look at Europe - HSR has significantly displaced short haul air service.
Just like with air service, the vast majority of HSR passengers will have to get local personal transport upon arrival. That means renting a car, getting an Uber, etc. Local public mass transit will make little difference, at least in the form it takes in DFW and Houston today. Though I will say the Houston station would definitely have transit appeal once it has the BRT connections to Downtown and Uptown (the latter is nearly already there). Much better than having the station on the outer edges of Downtown.
IIRC you're not originally from TX. The DFW / Houston airline flights, just like SoCal / Bay Area flights, were essentially high-frequency shuttles in the 1970s-1990s and very very popular (it was the most important route for Southwest). Internet, security and other factors seem to have reduced demand since then.
Part of the factor of whether folks will switch from air service to HSR for their trip depends on whether the stations in the two metros are convenient to where they're going / coming from. For some, the airports may remain more convenient. For others, the HSR stations may be better. This is as true for business travelers as for leisure travelers, especially given that a lot of the major employment centers in both metros are located well away from the urban cores.
The EU is intentionally banning short-haul flights in government favor of pushing HSR for Co2 and environmental related reasons, therefore it is artificially creating a larger market for HSR travel. It should also be kept in mind that driving in the EU is alot more expensive than it is in America, and they don't give every yee-haw licenses there like they do here either which further enhances the demand to ride vs drive. I won't deny that the EU HSR system is incredible and effective, but it does have government assistance in inducing demand for ridership. In reality, HSR can only compete with short-haul flights in a fair market. Currently A short-haul flight between DFW and HOU is going to take in the ball park of 3 - 4 hours when considering clearing TSA, checking in, boarding, the actual flight, and potentially baggage claim. That frame of time is comparable to driving, and you still have to contend with getting around Houston which there is no time savings even contending with local traffic by flying as adverse to driving as well as contending with a local method of transportation. Currently, there is no benefit to flying between DFW and HOU vs driving. Costs, time, and hassels are all the same, just spent differently. Flying today does not become more advantageous until you reach longer distances where you would ordinarily need to take a break for driving. Usually, that is in the ball park of a 6 - 8 hour drive, at which point it also becomes more advantageous to HSR as well.
1970's thru 90's were very different for air-travel than today as there were less restrictions to board and no TSA lines which increase overhead travel time, of which if were still true today, short-haul flights would fair a bit better to HSR in competition. If the current HSR were to be conceived, it would be faster than flying on average by an hour end to end, but most passengers are still going to need a way to get around HOU or DFW, there lies the problem where driving is still overall preferable end to end. It will still be more affordable and flexible as the distance end to end is not so great.
Will HSR between DFW and HOU see ridership in its current planned configuration? Certainly.
Will it see enough ridership to overcome the expenses necessary to build it (especially after Amtrak gets involved)? ...No... it simply put does not offer enough advantages over what already exists. This is why last mile connectivity would be important for it to work.
Do we NEED more effective transit in the TX-Triangle, yes... ...but it needs to be built with financial sustainability in mind and not thrown up only because we've never had it and it sounds 'cool'. Right now neither end-point are configured in such a way to make that happen.
Lastly, I was born in DFW. I just haven't live here my whole life.
Last edited by Need4Camaro; 08-18-2023 at 11:09 AM..
Why can't people get through their head that
more rail = less cars on the road
Same concept as cargo trains
one cargo train can replace 100 18-wheelers
Figure in as little as 15 years, there could be 20 million people living in both North Texas and the Houston area. It is unusual that two mega cities would be located so close to each other.
What has always been the case, too many train accidents will put freight back on trucks. In time, more freight will then shift back onto the trains until the cycle repeats itself.
I am all for maintaining government budgets within their means, but HSR is infrastructure spending. I have been on HSR all over Europe and Japan - and it is a much better way to travel compared to airports. This is why liberals love choo choos - because they are an additional travel option providing throughput that uses less energy, is safer, and more convenient than air for short distances. They have significant travel throughput. Airports are a pain in the a$$ for travelers, only getting worse, and are only better than HSR travel longer than 4-5 hours.
For those who say the rail should be financially sustainable - what does that mean? Everything pays for itself? Are the highways and airports able to sustain themselves without Federal, state, and local tax dollars? What would it cost to implement a new multi-lane Interstate between major cities? HSR has the same throughput as an interstate.
The US has an added issue where mega-projects, not just HSR, are always overbudget. Only holding trains to this standard is specious toward your free-market worshipping arguments. The F-35 and B-2 are prime examples. A wiser balance of capitalism and socialism is needed, not extremes of both.
For those who say the rail should be financially sustainable - what does that mean? Everything pays for itself? Are the highways and airports able to sustain themselves without Federal, state, and local tax dollars? What would it cost to implement a new multi-lane Interstate between major cities? HSR has the same throughput as an interstate.
It is not even close as HSR is 14 times more expensive than a urban 6 lane interstate highway.
The current cost to build estimate for for the California HSR is $204.7 million per mile for just the first 171 miles.
The current estimate for a new 6-lane Interstate Urban Highway is $14.3 million per mile. The cost is cheaper outside of urban areas, like the HSR project in California.
"New cost figures issued in an update report from the California High-Speed Rail Authority show that the plan to build the 171-mile initial segment has shot up to a high of $35 billion, exceeding secured funding by $10 billion." https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ion-in-the-red
"Florida Department of Transportation estimates prices range from $2.5 million per mile for new construction of a rural road to $4.3 million for an urban arterial 2-lane road with bike lanes. The estimated cost of a new 6-lane Interstate Urban Highway would be $14.3 million per mile."
"The Pennsylvania Department of Transportation estimates reconstruction costs per mile of Interstate range between $2.6 million and $5.2 million, depending on the number of lanes."
"According to the Arkansas Department of Transportation, average costs for reconstruction are $1.8 million per mile in rural areas to $2.1 million per mile in urban areas. New roads can range from $2.8 million to $11.2 million per mile, depending on the location, number of lanes, and type of road. They estimate that the cost of a diamond interchange is $7.6 million on a new road and $12.4 million if added to an existing highway." https://www.artba.org/about/faq/
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